The Importance of Co-Regulation with Shelby Leigh
We are hearing more and more about the importance of understanding our nervous system and its relationship to our health, mental health and well-being. But how often are we learning about the importance of co-regulation as a part of nervous system care? In today's episode, host Katie Kurtz is in conversation with guest Shelby Leigh peeling back the layers on why feeling safe and connected through co-regulation isn't a luxury—it's a necessity for healing. They explore the strength found in relationships and the often unacknowledged impact of trauma on our ability to be present for others. This episode delves into the profound world of co-regulation, its role in our healing journeys, and how it shapes our ability to foster a trauma-informed future—not just for ourselves, but within communities and workplaces.
Learn more about Shelby:
Shelby Leigh, LPC (she/her) is an educator, trauma specialist, somatic psychotherapist, coach, consultant and meditation teacher whose work celebrates the infinite possibilities of healing and growth. She is devoted to supporting trauma healing in a way that is gentle, simple, welcoming and skilled.
Shelby offers 1:1 trauma healing support to highly sensitive adults experiencing the heartbreaking impacts of being raised by narcissistic parents or caregivers. She also supports coaches, therapists and health and wellness practitioners in 1:1 nervous system support as they deepen and expand their professional work and businesses.
Shelby is a Licensed Professional Counselor, a twice certified coach, has devoured numerous trainings in the Somatic treatment of complex and developmental trauma and is a Certified Mindfulness and Meditation teacher. Shelby is a proud alumna of California Institute of Integral Studies in Somatic Psychology where her passion was sparked for integrating meditation, spirituality, embodiment and trauma healing.
Connect with Shelby:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/shelbyleighLLC/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shelby-leigh/
Instagram: @fierceheart.shelbyleigh
Check out Shelby’s upcoming retreat: https://www.shelby-leigh.com/panama-retreat
Show Transcript:
Katie Kurtz (she/her): [00:00:00] Hi, everyone, and welcome back to A Trauma Informed Future podcast. I am excited to reconnect and be in conversation with dear colleague and friend, Shelby. Welcome. I have been looking forward to this. I know we have been in many conversations in the past, and I'm excited for this one and also know we can have go for hours. So we'll try to own it in. But welcome. How are you arriving today?
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Thank you. That's a great question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me that. I'm staring out my window at really fluffy flakes of snow, which feels really calming. And I'm a little tired. I've been working so hard on this new marketing experience, like three to five hours a day on top of clients and everything else, but I'm loving it.
I'm just Fully consumed and a little sleepy from it.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): I know you love snow, so I'm glad that you have [00:01:00] that access. I'm about done. I'm at capacity with my snow intake, but happy you have it because you enjoy snowboarding and doing all the things in the snow. But I do love a cozy moment, so I'll take that.
Shelby, on this podcast, I selfishly love being in conversation with all my favorite people and new people in all sorts of conversations around trauma informed care. And I've said this a lot before, and I always think it bears repeating that we can't be trauma informed without also being healing informed.
And I think a lot of times, when we learn about trauma, we learn about how it changes our brain and our body and our life and so many different things, right? And sometimes we forget that healing can too, that healing also, in whatever form it may be, also can change our brains and our bodies and our whole life.
And there are so many different, meanings and indications of healing. And I know we [00:02:00] sit at the intersection of kind of different modalities and industries too, from coming from a very clinical space into the coaching wellness world, if you will and that intersection.
And for me, I believe healing takes multiple paths. There's multiple pathways, right? It's not that like very specific thing we used to. It's only this kind of modality, or only that, and then it turns into the gatekeeping, and then all the things, right? So I would love today to talk to you about let's open the can of worms of healing, which we would need to talk about the nervous system, and What is happening in the world right now with everyone sort of latching on to these terms? With many who are doing so in integrity, and many I think are just using words as like a thesaurus and not really understanding what, It all implies and the impact of it. Just a really light and breezy podcast episode. Just a few things to cover. [00:03:00]
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, I love that term healing informed.
I've never heard that. And I so appreciate that because it's the essence of, I mean, why I do what I do and probably what you do, which is that change can happen. Healing can happen. It does have the possibility of changing our minds, our bodies. Everything, our relationships. And we can't, if we're not holding that, there's really no point.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Right, right. And it's, I think it also is so important because what happens for people who are not in this work and I like, and I go out and train and teach in a lot of different industries where no one's talking about trauma, nor should they necessarily, but You know, we get the cringe in the shoulders to the ears of ooh, trauma.
That's a bad, it's a bad word. It's negative. It's those people. And then we [00:04:00] forget, though, that healing it like we just have these connotations and our brains conjure images of what certain things are. And it's usually this dark heaviness. And we leave out the fact that trauma survivors are incredible and there's some incredible healing that happens and there are incredible and beautiful and vast. ways for people to heal, not just in, six sessions of cognitive behavioral therapy, which we know actually doesn't really work. But anyways, like there's all sorts of modalities and there's all sorts of things outside of traditional clinical settings. And it's not just in shifting our brain and our minds, but in our bodies and within expression and relationship to ourselves, to each other, to the earth, to our experience.
There's just so many layers to it. And I think what we also forget too, is that what may [00:05:00] be healing for me may not work for you. And that doesn't mean my healing is less than or better than yours. It's just that maybe I don't respond to. EMDR and maybe you do or like whatever it may be, like it's it doesn't have to be this very narrow thing.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yeah. It's tricky. It's a gray area for me. Anyways, I was walking around my house at 9 o'clock last night. Annoyed because my friend has really been suffering a lot, but he's been going to his talk therapist every week. And so he believes that just by doing that healing is possible. And I'm not so sure.
I am not so sure that talking about our traumas again and again, without including the wisdom of the body or supporting the body is actually helpful. I've seen him get worse and more and more dysregulated, but he's [00:06:00] so committed to his therapist because of what mainstream healing has told us.
And I got to that. I've always been like, Oh yeah, I believe that everyone's healing path is unique. And I just totally believe that. As a good therapist, I should be supporting whatever path they choose. And I was like, screw this. I'm going to straight up tell him like, I don't think that what you're choosing and helping, I think it's actually harming you.
Because he's like on the verge of suicidality and it's not it's not giving him any breaths of fresh air, and when I look at healing, I'm like, you got to get some of those breaths of fresh air in. And So when I say it's a gray area, I do think there are some modalities that are actually harmful.
And, oh yeah. I am, I'm, I used to want to be like, oh, there's something good in everything. And I actually am like, nah, I've been doing this for 18 years. [00:07:00] I've tried every modality myself. I've been trained in many. And. I don't think that a lot is in integrity. So I don't know if I just tanted it from what you were saying, but I'm on a rant.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Well, no, I mean, I think that there's so much, there's, multiple things can be true. And I think, I recently did an episode with another therapist Sarah O'Brien, and we talked about there's a big difference between someone trained in a trauma healing modality and then the delivery of that modality.
And there can be two different things. And if the person delivering the modality and that modality of any type of could even be You know, body work or anything, if that person is not in integrity, if they're not, able to deliver it, it can impact the delivery. And then you might not have the experience.
It could end up being harmful or not landing appropriately. [00:08:00] So I think we have to remember that. And even I've been trained in a lot of modalities too and I can tell you the trainers were not in alignment and or trauma informed or anything. So then there's that layer too.
So it's not, none of this is perfect. And I think it comes back to what you're saying. It's not this like all or nothing kind of thing. But sometimes we have to. And I don't know, maybe I'm just stuck in the algorithm or the bubble of healing social media world, but I also think we need to take breaks.
We don't have to always be in therapy working. We have to have some breaks and come up, like you said, come up for air and breathe and live and, integrate some things. And I don't think we talk enough about that really.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Well, also, I don't think that therapy needs to be work.
I think most of the folks who come see me have been working in therapy for 20 years or 30 or 40, and they're [00:09:00] exhausted. They've been using therapy as a re perpetuation of perfectionism. And When they come to me, they don't have to work. I use a modality where they can rest into support. They don't even have to speak if they don't want to.
And I'm a trauma therapist. I'm a trauma specialist, and it is such a relief to have finally found a modality where work isn't synonymous with therapy. It actually can be enjoyable. It can increase our joy. We can feel ease and connection and it doesn't even have to feel uncomfortable. I'm moving out of that paradigm that we have to be uncomfortable to heal.
And I'm, I just feel like standing on all the soap boxes, teaching about it and talking about it because When we're asking folks with trauma to work hard, they've already been working hard. And so it feels counterproductive to me. And I did that. I did that with clients for decades, and it was also exhausting for [00:10:00] me.
So it's just nice to know that we're evolving and shifting and changing and that it can be different.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thank you for naming that. I think that's such a good reminder and. Permission slip to shift into a different way of looking at healing and allowing, especially for those in trauma healing, allowing it to not be hard or uncomfortable or more effort and exertion.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yeah,
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Shelby, you mentioned something and sharing, the example of your friend and I'm curious if we can create some shared language here. So you mentioned that your friends experiencing a lot of dysregulation. We're definitely hearing a lot more therapeutic terminology be used in mainstream everything, right?
People are really adopting therapeutic language, for better or worse, and we're seeing a lot of [00:11:00] terms being used, and sometimes they're used properly, and sometimes it can be misinterpreted or misspoken about. And I think regulation, dysregulation, co regulation are three, And I think regulation, dysregulation, co regulation are three, Terms that I'm seeing more a lot and a lot of and not sure if Everything is really adding up.
I've been seeing a lot, this is a popular meme, and I'm really curious your thoughts on this because I know you have them. There's some popular meme going around that a healthy or successful quote unquote nervous system is a calm one. And every time I see someone share it, I think I might throw my phone.
I'm just like, alright. Why? Yeah. So I was wondering if we could talk a little bit about those terms and like the nervous system because I think there's a lot, I mean, it's a huge like it's a very complex thing. And also it's important to ensure [00:12:00] we're having some, aligned understanding around what it is we're talking about.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yeah, I mean, I so appreciate that the nervous system is coming into the conversations because to me, it's everything, we can do all the modalities in the world, but our nervous systems aren't getting supported. It's not going to stick. And so I'm glad we're starting to create. conversations around it, but you're right.
Like people aren't necessarily fully understanding. There's so many nervous system in quotes practices that people are doing that are actually not really nervous system regulating practices. And it reminds me of, the word somatic when I was in grad school for somatic psychotherapy in 2008 or whatever, I was like, how are we ever going to describe this?
It was felt impossible. And now it's starting to happen. And , in other ways, some people are like, not fully getting that still, but [00:13:00] we're starting to create a culture of understanding around it, which I really love. Same with the word mindfulness. And that meme. is totally off to me in one way and in another way it nails it, but it's missing the nuance.
And so I come at it from my Buddhist perspective, , my own like mindfulness practice. The point is to be so regulated that we can be fully expressed as humans. We can have every single human experience. Emotion and expression and then have a wider capacity to hold it and that's the calm. The calm is that like wide, steady, like thing that can hold rage.
It can hold disappointment. It can hold ecstasy. It can hold joy. It can hold boredom. So there's something on the outside that is, I wouldn't say calm. I'd say steady, like it's a container. [00:14:00] It can ride all of the waves, big and small. In an unwavering way when we're regulated, but that doesn't mean we're calm all the time.
That means actually that we get to be more ourselves. We get to unmask. We get to let ourselves out. And there's support for it. The, when we're dysregulated, there's a perceived or real presence of threat, generally, and so we get very narrow and there isn't a lot of space to have all of the fear, all of the grief, all of the, whatever it is, perfectionism.
And when we're wider, we get to be messy human beings and feel safe enough as that. Now, that's not really calm. That's actually enliven, there's a lot of aliveness inside of being regulated. And for a lot of people, as they heal, it feels the opposite of calm, [00:15:00] it feels very activating because we're safe enough to have more energy, more parts of ourselves available.
But there is a broader thing that is calm and steady, but it's layered. So we can't just simplify it in a meme.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Yeah, well, yes, there's that. I love this. idea of container or containment. As a space holder that's something I typically utilize as a visual. But yeah I so agree with you. It's really about capacity building. Like, how do we build our capacity to be with the array of emotions or experiences and find a steady ground or groundedness or center or whatever, term that doesn't draws my brain into that either or linear thing of like good, bad, right or wrong.
And that's not where I want to go here. I want to be more neutral, more steady, where you have the capacity to withstand the ups and [00:16:00] downs, the all over grief and things, but you're able to come back to center. And it's not saying we don't. go off center. It's what he used to come back. So I love that and it's I can feel, physically feel that and remember that in my own body when I think about certain things in my life that have helped me build that capacity.
Can you talk a little bit about co regulation? Because I don't feel like we ever talk about it, actually. And I feel like it's I talk about it a lot, but when we, when I see everyone talking about nervous system care on. On the socials. I'm always just but where's the co regulation?
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Yes. I just wanted to say to you about that previous thing. It's the difference between dropping a rock into a bucket versus throwing a rock into the ocean. The ripples, when we are dysregulated, that [00:17:00] bucket is going to be overflowing, it's going to, the water is going to be moving, it's going to be intense, it'll get cloudy.
But if we throw that same rock into the ocean, eh, there's really very little ripple, right, in the grand scheme of things. So when we're regulated, we're the ocean.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Love that. Such a great, I love a good visual, I love that one. That's so true. Yeah, thank you.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yeah, the same weather comes and goes all the same as over the bucket in the ocean, but the ocean has more capacity for it all just to move through.
And that was my reference to mindfulness, which comes from Buddhism, . It's like when we're clinging to pleasure or hating pain, we are not regulated. But when we're regulated, which is the basis of, the original intention around mindfulness is being able to have equanimity, which is balanced, not overwhelmed by all of that.
So co regulation, I'm so grateful you asked because there's so many people working double time doing these self regulation [00:18:00] practices, which I can appreciate because when we don't have the ability to co regulate with folks or a pet or something It's something that we can do, but when we don't have co regulation, it can't really sink in, it doesn't go very deep.
So this comes from when we're babies. We are meant to learn who, how we are, to process our emotions, to feel our bodies through connection, in the best of circumstances. Most of us didn't get that, or actually, I would say the percentage is not. My percentage, because that's who I see all day every day. But many folks didn't get that.
There were ruptures that made it hard to experience co regulation where I feel safe and connected in the presence of another, and therefore I'm able to be fully expressed, to know who I am [00:19:00] and to have emotions in a way that really makes sense. When we didn't get that we became dysregulated.
The bucket happened. And the more of those ruptures, or ways that maybe we were missed, we didn't get the care or support we really needed the more dysregulated we became. I say we because that is my history. And I don't see a world in which healing can happen without co regulation. In fact, the more we get into AI and this and that, I'm just like, well, I've got some job security. Healing hurt and harm and trauma happens in relationship. Complex PTSD, developmental trauma. So healing can also happen in relationship.
And when we bring That relationship and the possibility of co regulation opens up. We can never force co regulation. We never know it will happen. Even if we're the most highly trained [00:20:00] specialists, but we can be available for it if our clients nervous systems feel safe enough in our presence to lean into that, that can take a day.
It can take 17 years, depends. And when we bring in that availability, the possibility of relationship as medicine in our healing relationships and any other relationships, healing happens so much faster. It's incredible. Then, those safe self regulation practices work. But without the co regulation first, because that was what we were supposed to get first, As an infant, actually even pre prenatally before birth.
If we don't get that on board, it's going to be like, I don't know why we're talking about buckets so much today, but it's going to be like pouring water into a bucket with holes, every self regulation practice, it'll fill it up a bit, [00:21:00] but then it will drain out. It'll fill it up a bit. It will drain out.
But when we have co regulation on board we can begin to stop up some of those holes and the self regulation practices will work and not have an impact because that co regulation is also there. And just to say, if I was listening to this 10 years ago, I'd be like, screw you. I don't trust anyone.
And I don't have anyone in my life that I feel safe enough around, including my therapist. So how am I supposed to heal? And so I would say, If you have a pet, a plant, a tree, a spot of grass, something that just feels like it's a living being, that something that is a living being that you feel safe enough to just exhale and lean into to really start there.
And that can actually be enough of a starting place to bring that co regulation on board. [00:22:00]
Katie Kurtz (she/her): I almost did a little dance there. I'm so happy to hear all this. I couldn't agree more. And I think this is what we're missing in these conversations. That, yeah you can do all the things, right?
The movements, the things, the eyes, cold showers, all the stuff, but I say this often trauma it thrives in that isolation. And like you said it's typically always something relational that is ruptured or broken or harmed. So if we look at healing in its journey and forms, it needs to be relational.
And I always say like, when you even look at resilience, which is this capacity building that you're trying to like becoming the ocean, it's relational. Like we, yes, there's an element of self efficacy and looking within ourselves and all of that, but. We need other people or living beings, and I love that you talked about that, and I think this piece [00:23:00] goes missing too, is this, the power of animals.
As co regulators, I know we're both dog people, like my dogs are my co regulation team. Every half hour, I am just like, let's pet take some of my energy. And. Like nature, water, like trees, plants, all of these things, whatever feel, you feel a connection with can provide, like nature.
Oh my gosh, one of our most incredible co regulators, right? Oh my gosh I can think back at some of my most like profound memories of feeling connected and it was in nature and for everyone, not for everyone. No. But for me personally, that like I can I know what those things are and I know when I do feel dysregulated, where to go or who to turn to, including the people in my life.
So I really appreciate you naming that and like us discussing [00:24:00] this and I want to come back to for again for Those of us that took it took time for that, or we don't have access to, or maybe we're not at a place where we can feel that that safety or that trust or whatever it may be.
And I appreciate you talking about that. And I'm curious. How, you mentioned beginning, but is there anything else people can consider, I guess, maybe from the opposite end of people who may be holding space for folks who are starting what can we do as the space holder or provider or service provider?
Shelby Leigh (she/her): I'm so glad you asked that because I was like, Oh, well, co regulation doesn't mean any relationship under any circumstance, so it's tricky. And I'm not even sure I'm going to be able to answer this well, because I'm trained in a co regulation based modality. And so it's easy for me. I just [00:25:00] do the modality, which is a lot about how I be and the coolest thing, I mean, this is why I help so many folks, practitioners work, move from burnout to feeling like they can breathe again is because when we're co regulating, when co regulation comes on board with a client, we leave the session feeling better. That's how we know. That's how we know co regulation is happening because we feel good too.
We feel full. We feel whole in ourselves. We feel at ease. And a lot of that comes from being regulated. When I am regulated. Present and at ease, balanced, centered, calm. No, I'm just kidding. When I am fully able to be myself in my seat as a healing practitioner, Oh, I have so much more energy than spinning my wheels on the back of my head.
What intervention should I do next? Should I say that here? What do I need to [00:26:00] do to help my clients heal? Instead, now I am, how am I being? Am I a person that this person can like lean towards? Am I safe enough? How do I know I'm safe enough? This comes with having my own circle of support with colleagues, with trainings, with getting feedback and reflections.
So that I can come to sessions as regulated as fully possible and clients actually, I mean, we could really sit mostly in silence and we do a lot because the clients I see in central Oregon, we work on a table supporting their bodies. It's similar when I work online, but if I'm not regulated, clients are, they come at me with such a different experience.
They leave feeling dysregulated. That's on me. I leave feeling dysregulated. So [00:27:00] the best thing I can say in terms of how do we create co regulation is we work to slow down. We feel confident enough to take a few breaths as people are sharing intense things. Not because we don't want to hear it all, but because we want to be, stay really present with it together.
Cause the body moves slower than the mind. And so even if we can hear it all, and they can, we don't actually want to do that. So we slow down like the pace of an oak tree, so that we can really hold the details if they want to be shared in a different way than they maybe ever have. And they can feel us with them.
Something I'll ask a lot, can you feel me here with you? And It's revolutionary because so many people haven't done enough work in themselves to make themselves available and connected in that way, which makes sense. We, a lot of us come [00:28:00] at it from our own trauma. We want to be helpers and we want to be seen as helpers.
We want to feel proud. We want to feel helpful and we want our clients to see us that way. But we have to be able to put our egos aside and really actually be able to not be full of advice and fixing and figure out. We have to be able to sit in the unknown, which is absolutely uncomfortable, especially for folks with trauma histories.
But when we can, then we're regulated and our clients can feel that.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Thank you for sharing that. I think it highlights such an important thing and it goes back to understanding regulation, not as something we can perfect or check a box. It's not about it's about the capacity building and that co regulation is also like building our capacity to be with the humanity of people before us, not to fix, judge or solve, but just to witness and also [00:29:00] make sure we're not either.
Escaping and dissociating ourselves and dysregulating, but, or joining in on whatever is happening before us. And, typically, when I train on trauma informed care, I'm working with a lot of people who are not clinicians but are leading individuals and teams. And when I talk about the nervous system and I talk about co regulation, And I'd be curious to your input on this, because you may disagree with me, but I teach people that like, you have this ability to co regulate in your spaces. It doesn't, it's not reserved just for, within therapy sessions. We can do that in our team meetings, in our, conflict resolution meetings with whatever, or workshops or just in the office. But, It comes back to your regulation and how that impacts the people.
So if I come into a training and I'm dysregulated, you're going to pick up on it. And then the whole training could feel a little off. But if I come in and I'm regulated and you're dysregulated, [00:30:00] you might start to feel a shift. And it's because of the mirroring to of our nervous systems in that way.
And That kind of ties into what we know from research just over the years around trauma is that we know that this terminology of safe, healthy, nurturing relationships have the impact to prevent, mitigate, and heal trauma. And that's that's the code. I was like, but that's the code regulation. We just don't for some reason don't utilize that term.
But I can I believe we can we can find that in many places, not just within therapeutic spaces. .
Shelby Leigh (she/her): And I think we need it. And I totally agree with you. I think that when we can show up being available for that and inviting that, I mean, we can never require it or make it happen. But if we have that in our frame of reference, we can do it through being playful.
We can do it through slowing [00:31:00] down. We can do it through. Being trauma informed, how are we starting from point A to point B to point C, orienting people, helping them feel safe enough to just let their body be in the same space as me and feel safe enough to start relating. There's so many ways to begin the process of inviting co regulation to happen if it wants to happen.
And I think it can happen anywhere. And I want to see it happening in more and more spaces. So I feel really excited hearing you say that.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): two things came up for me just now when you said that with playfulness. And, I'm not in the corporate world I never really have been, but I work along the edges of and I work with folks and just like any industry though, really what we're seeing becoming more mainstream in any large kind of company setting is like workplace wellness, everyone get your calm app or your mindfulness app and whatever I'm starting to see more people do some.
Let's take a [00:32:00] moment to pause before a meeting starts, or a Zoom meeting. Love it. Love to see it, right? Years back, who would have thought? But I'm curious, too, about your thoughts on mindfulness in the workplace, because this is Again, what is that? First and foremost, but how that ties to co regulation, like what you mentioned, can we pause?
Can we take a breath? Can we do it together? Can we remember that we're all breathing all the time? Hopefully, and That we don't have to be like breathwork teachers or yoga teachers just to say wow, that was really intense conversation. I just like maybe a collective deep breath if anyone wants to join me, like speaking it in those invitations.
So that was the one thing that like. popped in my head. I was like, can we look at mindfulness from this nervous system informed way and trauma informed way? And then when you said playfulness, I immediately went to joy. Like how does joy play into Our nervous system care and especially co [00:33:00] regulation.
So those are my random brain pops there when you were talking. I got a little excited about it.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): So I heard you ask a question about mindfulness in the workplace and then joy and nervous system regulation. Was there another one in there too?
Katie Kurtz (she/her): No, that's just my brain regurgitating what you heard in a really excited way without any very clear question.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yeah. I mean. It's like we were talking about, mindfulness in the workplace. Great. I'm so excited. And are the folks guiding the mindfulness experienced? Do they know how to guide in a trauma informed way? Because they may be activating folks more than they're helping them regulate. If they're not sharing mindfulness in a way that promotes nervous system regulation.
And there, because mindfulness has become so popular and not regulated it could go either way. You got to do your [00:34:00] research.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): And I also see it being like, back to the bucket metaphor, cause we're just going to ride that for a while. If you, throw something into a bucket, , it's a short distance. How deep are you actually going with mindfulness? That's great if you're doing really basic, like sometimes we need to be basic and utilize really simple practices, but are we also integrating, are we just checking the box to say we're being mindful? Once, a week or we integrating mindfulness throughout the culture of the team or the workplace, which is more so like throwing that rock into an ocean and letting it go deep, float down to that ground where it goes deeper than like the one inch drop in the bucket because . my judginess comes out when I see a lot of these employee health workplace wellness stuff, and I've been an employee of places that has these and I'm always just yeah, self care, mindfulness, because I just know that they're very surface level, or [00:35:00] performative.
And I am always just and what qualifies you to do it. It's me, I'm always like what's going on here? And how are we, saying practice mindfulness, yet we're flooded with unnecessary urgency and these really, practices that kind of go against the mindfulness.
So it's what is it, what are we doing here? Is it, what's real and what's just, again, saying it instead of being it.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yeah, I mean, I think we have to be more discerning than ever right now, because, social media, it's, people can do whatever they want and a million people are just deciding that they're a practitioner without knowing.
Yeah. in depth training. And so in some ways it's great. There are so many folks who don't have complex trauma who are very helped for by a once a week mindfulness class and go home and they're more gentle with their kids [00:36:00] and their partner. And it does help them be more awake and connected and kind.
Mindfulness is incredibly powerful, even when taught in a not informed way for certain folks. But when we go deeper and we want to support everyone in our organizations we have to do it in a deeper way and we all have to pick on our battles. That is not my battle anymore, but it sure used to be. I cannot, it's just too big of a monster.
It is. It is for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And then joy is an incredible side effect of becoming. Regulated and wide enough to have the capacity for more emotions, right? When we feel safe enough, joy naturally rises to the surface. When we don't feel safe, we, joy is, it's really not very possible to feel joy because we can't look for the tiger if we're [00:37:00] experiencing joy, right?
But I love that it's a natural side effect of healing, of becoming present and welcoming more parts of ourselves. I heard Trevor Noah speaking recently on the Dax Shepard podcast and I was like, you just described in three sentences what I do. And he was like, when you grow up around a lot of chaos and a lot of trauma and a lot of stress, you're comfortable in the trauma, the chaos, stress, all the things that aren't joy, right?
It's like being in a horror movie or watching a horror movie, like when everything is at ease, like they're just like in the kitchen making dinner. That's when you're terrified because you know something's going to happen. So he was saying, the capacity for joy, ease, rest, connection in a healthy way was not his norm because his norm was always being in the stress and the chaos in order to be on guard for survival.[00:38:00]
When we heal, we have to actually learn, many of us, how to experience joy and feel safe enough having it. Otherwise it's fleeting. It's, it can actually even be alarming or feel like a threat. So like my retreat coming up, that's all we're doing. We're going to a five star retreat center just to go, can I feel safe enough to rest into ease, support, luxury, and it's so actually real that we have to learn this. We haven't experienced joy in a consistent, sustainable, regulated, steady way before. And it's some of the most beautiful healing we can do. .
Katie Kurtz (she/her): That feeling of I forget who talked about it, but like this fear of joy, because like the, like, when's the next shoe going to drop?
It's like this anticipatory fear around joy, because it could be too good to be true. Or like, when's the next thing? And it is, it's, it can feel really risky, right? And I [00:39:00] love the idea of having A retreat , like a container to explore that to get curious without the expectation that you have to have this blissed out, amazing thing, right, high vibe, whatever I love retreat so much, like retreats are one of my most favorite things to lead and also be a participant in, I have found incredible healing, incredible connection to self and to community.
In various retreat settings, and I love that you have a new and I know you've led many retreats, but that you're creating this really specific immersive container specifically for that. That's such a beautiful, I love that's a thing, especially when, again, in the wellness world, there's a million retreats, right?
Like all these, they all look amazing, but then you get in, you're like, [00:40:00] how it again, it comes back to the retreats, one thing, but who's leading? Who are the people? How is it being delivered? How is it being held and led? And that impacts. the experience and so having someone like you who's so aligned and within integrity like really holding and like that at the helm helping secure that container like what a beautiful space to even just dip your toes in if it's still extra risky.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yeah, I hope so. I'm so excited. And, I, there are a lot of retreats out there. They're like, come be blissed out and high vibe. And I'm like, I've been on retreat. I'm on quite a ride when I'm there. I feel like I should be doing this. I should be feeling this. I want to participate in that. I'm terrified to participate in that.
And it's, we have to have some space for all of it. And to know how to do that. So I'm just really excited to see what happens.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:00] That's always the thing I love when people assume that like you go on a retreat and it's just like a packed agenda of we're gonna do this and that and this.
And I'm like, every time I've led a retreat, there's always Lots of open space, right? And I look for people who lead retreats with that space because you need time to integrate and rest and digest and nap even like just take a nap because that it's an immersion and it can, it's that's the whole point of the word retreat, right, is to retreat.
So I'm excited for you and I hope people listening can check out all of your retreats because it's such a beautiful way to I just, it's such a, it's such a great experience and a beautiful way, like you said, to explore and get curious and discover, what is possible for you in a way that's trauma informed and held with that intention.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yeah, and we do a little breath work there, and we do some self regulation type things, but the bulk of the practices and [00:42:00] the things we'll be connecting around is co regulation. So we start there, and then we add the other things, because it's well, they're not gonna necessarily hurt, but if they feel great for you, you can take that too.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh, retreats and co regulation. I just think about all the retreats I've been on and how you go in as strangers and leave and I never like to think, to tell me that's the expectation. You just never know. And again, connection can be very risky too. And vulnerability and all of that, but I'm very fortunate because of the people I've been in retreat with have created containers where beautiful connection and co regulation existed and to have beautiful friendships and relationships with people from many years ago. Like I just love retreats, do a whole podcast on retreats. It's just like my favorite thing. I'm just excited for everyone going. Oh my goodness. This was so wonderful. I. I'm curious, as we kind [00:43:00] of wrap things up, is there anything else that you might suggest or leave as invitations to people listening, who may represent a variety of industries, they may be newer to trauma informed care, or maybe really experienced, we're all in our own evolution, when it comes to like, When it comes to nervous system regulation and care what are some things you would like to invite people to think about to expand maybe our understanding or stay curious about or maybe things to try on as practices?
Shelby Leigh (she/her): I think it'll sound opposite from what I've been sharing because I can be pretty judgy and adamant about you must do this. But I would say, let it be messy, that we get to be human beings as we're in this evolution. together as we're in trauma, healing, trauma, informed care, whether we're practitioners or participants.
Most of the [00:44:00] time we're both and when we notice ourselves trying to get it right, that can be a trauma response. And so allowing ourselves as much grace as possible to be learning, growing, trying things on, screwing it up getting feedback, all of it. And to know, if I'm feeling overwhelmed or scared or whatever, that's normal in this process.
And it's totally okay to be human. In fact, it's better than trying to tiptoe or walk on eggshells around ourselves or someone else trying to do it right. Cause there is no one way. To do this right.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): . Well, I needed to hear that as a recovering perfectionist. And a very strong Virgo, which always tends to go into rightness.
It's always a helpful reminder to know that perfection isn't real and there is no right way. So thank you for that reminder. All right, so here I'm going to welcome you into my gentle [00:45:00] spritz, soft spray, if you will of questions as we close out today if you're ready for it. If you could describe trauma informed care in one word, what would it be?
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Humanity? Humanist? Mandatory.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Yes. What is your current go to for nervous system care?
Shelby Leigh (she/her): When I really need some regulation, it is leaning shoulder to shoulder with somebody that I really care about and that I feel safe enough with just breathing and getting a little bit of contact and not doing a bunch of processing, just getting that physical support when I can
Katie Kurtz (she/her): what does a trauma informed future look like for you?
Shelby Leigh (she/her): That we're not even having these conversations because it's so embedded in our culture. It's just not even a thing. It looks like more and more folks feel safe enough to be fully expressed [00:46:00] as themselves. And When we call the dentist or the hairstylist or the therapist or the neuropsych person that I called recently, that when we say, what is trauma informed care look like for you? Is your practice trauma informed? They're like, I am so glad you asked. I'd be so happy to connect with you and talk more.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): That's the future I want to, I love when people answer this question and they're like, well, we just wouldn't have it. We wouldn't even need to like, talk about it. It's just like the norm. And I'm like, yeah, I have that's why we're here. It's just like slow, but steady co creating that. And I know through the work you do that you're helping people build that capacity for this to be possible. And so I'm grateful for you, Shelby. Thank you so much for this conversation. Is there anything you want to share? Please tell us about the details of your upcoming retreat and any of your other services so people can connect to you.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Yeah, so my retreat is coming up quick. It's in May [00:47:00] 12th to 18th. It's in Panama. We will be doing some practices, a lot of connection around how we can let in more ease, spaciousness, rest, aliveness, inspiration. We, there's optional surfing. Most of us going are not expert surfers. We're just gonna laugh and play and fall off and get back up.
And a lot of space for exploring and enjoying and also just five star luxury and. Amazing food. I'm so looking forward to it. There's folks signed up from all over the world. So it's going to be a really sweet group. And then I have my course creating safer space that creating safer space. com. And all sorts of offerings.
I support coaches and therapists with embodied somatic supervision and mentorship in a group. And I'm just about to open up another cohort. Shelby dash Lee L E I G [00:48:00] H dot com. You can
find it all there.
Katie Kurtz (she/her): Yes, everything is linked. Please check it out. You have so many amazing courses and offerings and hold such a beautiful space for people. So thank you so much Shelby for being here and sharing with us today.
Shelby Leigh (she/her): Thank you.
