What does it actually take to build trauma-informed schools and systems where both young people and the adults who support them can thrive?
In this episode, host Katie Kurtz is joined by Dr. Brianna Young, educator, systems-change leader, and author of The Trauma-Informed Educator, for a conversation about moving trauma-informed practice beyond individual strategies and into the structures, relationships, and cultures that shape our everyday school experiences.
We explore why supporting students also means supporting teachers, how organizational systems can mirror the stress responses we see in individuals, and why accountability, trust, collaboration, and creativity are essential to meaningful change.
From rethinking communication and power dynamics to finding small, practical ways to create more breathing room for educators, Dr. Young reminds us that trauma-informed practice isn't another initiative or toolkit. It's developing a mindset of seeing, relating, and designing the systems we inhabit.
Learn more about Dr. Brianna Young:
Dr. Brianna Young, is an educator, author, strategist, and self-proclaimed professional question-asker who believes curiosity, connection, and some clear (but kind!) communication can transform the way we teach, lead, and learn. With experience spanning classrooms, universities, and organizational leadership, Bri brings a systems-level lens to trauma-informed education, challenging the idea that meaningful change has to be complicated, exhausting, or devoid of joy. As the author of The Trauma-Informed Educator, she challenges educators and leaders to move beyond buzzwords and rethink how everyday interactions shape the experiences of those around us. When she's not facilitating learning or challenging the status quo, you'll probably find her at a restaurant, walking around the lake by her house, or heading to the airport.
Connect with Dr. Brianna Young:
Instagram: @briannayoungteaches
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianna-young-educator/
Purchase Her Book: https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-trauma-informed-educator-mindsets-and-practices-for-resilience-connection-and-change-brianna-young/fce2eeeb856fdbbd
Website: briannayoungconsulting.org
Show Transcript:
Katie Kurtz (she/her): [00:00:00] hi, everyone. Welcome back to A Trauma-Informed Future podcast. I'm so excited. I'm going to have to really watch myself in this conversation because I think we could talk... I say this in every single conversation, but I know we could talk for hours, so we're really gonna hone it in. Welcome, welcome, Dr.
Brianna Young. So happy to have you here. We have been circling each other's orbits, I feel like for years, maybe. I don't know. Years,
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): I think. Yeah.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): So, so glad we're finally, like, in the orbit, and you can't get rid of me now. So welcome. Yes. Welcome. How are you arriving here today? You know, like bios and things, we have them, but just like tell us human first, helper second, how you doing?
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): You know, I love this question. I always start my university classes and like workshops with that, and usually I have like a series of animals and degreeing levels of disheveled and tongues out and goofiness. [00:01:00] So I think I'm, I'm picturing like a puppy right now with like big perky ears, big eyes, tongue out, tail wagging.
Like, that's, I think, my energy. Mostly because, similar, I'm so excited to be actually in tangible virtual community with you after all the years of following your work.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Ah, love that. I have two puppies sitting outside my door right now eager to, to be a part of this too. Probably for different reasons.
So I, you know, I think just touching upon this like circling orbits, it's such a testament to how trauma informed practice, it's like it is a movement, that there's so many people in it. Yeah. There's so many different interpretations. There's so many people out here just doing the work, and I think you're somebody who has brilliantly bridged doing the work every day, you know, in all these different areas, and also leading the charge and at the helm, especially around [00:02:00] trauma informed education.
So I'd love to hear from you, like give us the lore. How did this all start? Where did it- Tell us about your trauma informed journey.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Yeah.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): I always like to know where people, came into this work.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Yes. I think, oh my gosh, it is funny 'cause I, I often struggle to answer this question because it's been a very interesting non-linear process, and even when I talk about the work I do now, I don't fit in a bucket.
I sit at the intersection of a lot of things, and so it's hard to feel like how I capture this journey. But I think the heart and core of it always starts with young people and youth, and I think that continues to act as my through line and my compass. I started my career as a middle school teacher.
Still my favorite job of all time. I will die on the hill that 14-year-olds are the best people on the planet, and my methodology is if it works for eighth graders, it works for adults. So I will always be anchoring the goofy fun. Fair assessment. Thank you. I think so. You know, and I think that, yeah, that really grounds a lot of what I do.
[00:03:00] So I, I started working always in middle schools. And as someone who was actually navigating trauma as a child at that age, I think there was a lot that I was really curious about happening in my classroom, but I never made the bridge to consider, oh, some of these behaviors that are driving me crazy might actually just not be rooted in the kid being, quote-unquote, "defiant," my least favorite word.
Like, it may not actually be connected to anything even I'm doing in this moment. And noticing and believing that as an educator I would have data that would be different than all the other teachers, and I was gonna do all these beautiful things, and then looking at my discipline data, my academic data, and being like Oh, that's not different.
And I had to really sit and stare, what's, what's happening? And I started asking that trauma-informed question before I even understood and had any language for what that meant because I cared so much about the humans in front of me. So that started some individual digging, some individual studying. I ended up switching [00:04:00] schools to a school where the administrator was really invested in this type of work early on, brought in training.
That really sparked my interest and I ended up pursuing that for my master's degree at Concordia in trauma and resilience in education which then sparked, you know, kind of broad- more broadly this work in building systems and doing that work in classrooms. Then COVID hit. And like so many folks, I think COVID shifted a lot of things for people, and I was in more of a instructional coaching.
I was in a theme-based magnet school and I was leading that work at the time and kind of then stepping more broadly to the systems lens versus individual classroom lens in that perspective. And ended up moving across the country out to the San Francisco Bay Area and looking at license transfer and being like, "This is a nightmare to transfer my teaching license," 'cause all the paperwork and all that.
I'm like, "I have a master's degree. I have to take more classes? Like, what is this?" And I ended up finding a job at this Oakland-based nonprofit called Trauma Transforms that did systems change work in public health, behavioral [00:05:00] health, school systems, and they were kind of revamping some curriculum work and I was like, "I love curriculum.
Let's talk." And ended up just coming on part-time, and I've, I've been with them the last five years. But again, that, that journey then shifting from how do we do this in tandem with young people to then doing this more at that systems level and working with the supporters of young people has also really shifted my systems framing a lot more strategically.
And I know this is something you talk about all the time on the podcast is it's not, it actually isn't just this individual interpersonal. There's so much more to what exists around us that allows us to either be trauma-informed and find healing or continue facing more harm, more frustration, more challenge.
So I think I'm getting a little lost in my own sauce here as I'm talking, but I think the, the, the, the depth of that then is beginning to say how do we build cohesive, collaborative, clear systems that can better support our communities that our young people are growing up in so that we [00:06:00] can reduce harm they may face and hopefully bring about more healing-centered systems.
So-
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yeah ...
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): that's the work. So now I t- teach adults and I train teachers. I train public health, behavioral health staff. We do a lot of coaching and technical assistance to build that capacity on teams.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): I love it. I... Okay, where do I start? First, I- Too much. No, so much good stuff. I'm eager and ready to jump in.
So it's always so nice to meet people obviously in this work, but who have, who have a systems lens. My background's in social work. I'm just- Yeah ... always that same person, like, asking, "But why? What, what are we seeing?" And I, and it's, you know- We, we are exist in systems. We're ... That's the reality of our humanity, and so it always boggles my mind when people are so narrowly focused on individuals and don't see [00:07:00] the context of where, where we're all at.
And that's so much of what you write in your book, and one of your Cs, and, like, and again, that, like, coherence of bringing it all together. And I think what you've shared there, and it makes a lot of sense with your journey, is how, you know, yeah, some people are like, "Well, you're just a middle school teacher," but it's more than that, right?
Like, it's, it's in, and you s- Yeah ... you're able to, like, bridge and see and create that coherence between that one, you know, those students in a classroom and the whole system. And then- Mm ... doing the work
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): of- Yeah ...
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): transforming. I think, like, transformation sometimes people think of it's, like, th- either/or, but it's, like, and it's always and both.
And it's been so- Mm ... amazing to, to finally learn about and connect with trauma transformed and all that work. It's, like, s- such aligned with everything I do and, like, believe in. So it's- thrilled to- Yeah ... to, to know that exists in the world for sure.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): [00:08:00] Yeah. No, I love that. And I, I think that's part of why I actually keep, I keep coming back to K-12 education even having stepped out of being in the classroom and now working in, like, higher ed teaching teachers and then supporting schools in other ways, is I think for that exact reason, is there's this, this need to invest in and engage in this, like, collective vision.
And I think so often, especially we think about different, like, matriarchal societies and the ways that we kind of hold young people as ... I mean, your podcast is A Trauma-Informed Future. Like, what more future is there than investing in the youth and then providing care for the adults that exist around them?
Because I think so often in schools or in the helping professions, social work, human services, it does become this individual pressure that's put on the adults to hold, carry, nurture, be all, do all the things all the time with minimal supports. And I think, yes, I ... [00:09:00] The book, I should have mentioned the book too.
Yay, like, real excited. The Trauma-Informed Educator that I'm really excited about. But toggling between like, "Hey, teacher, here are tools, strategies, resources that help you and cultivate your mindset because you are worthy of tools and support," and, "Hey, system, we need to think differently about we're asking people to, you know, slow down the pace and help students process and, and sit with their emotions," but then we're not adjusting the pacing of the curriculum, so everything then suddenly feels pressured and- intense.
So how do we hold space for both of those needs? And we have to find some degree of negotiating. And so, yeah, the book kind of concludes- Yeah ... with this idea of coherence and thinking about how do we design the systems around our young people. So there's a lot there.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yeah. There is, and I think, you know, especially when we're looking and working and applying this approach into systems that are very complex and have very [00:10:00] past and current histories of creating environments and perpetuating harm and hurt and trauma among people and cultures of people, it's...
And, and you, you know, you and I both sit at those intersections of, like, healthcare and, and education systems are the two big ones, right? I, you know, I think I exist more so in healthcare, maybe in education, but, like, in both, and, like, these systems are very complicated. And so it's gonna take time to... And we see and feel the most hesitation and pushback of, of trying to bring this approach in.
Mm. And people outside these systems, or who still exist in them, 'cause we all exist in education and healthcare systems, but people are always shocked when I say that. Because when I talk to kids, no matter their age, [00:11:00] from early on to college, when I explain what this is, when I've done, like, peer support training and, like, student groups, they're all like, "Yeah."
Why wouldn't we consider what I've gone through in life and- Mm-hmm ... where I live and what, you know, the context, once again, for how, you know, I receive any type of care or support?
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Mm.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): But for whatever reason, adults are like, "No," and it's just like the space. And I don't know where I was going with that because-
I just had, like, a million things shoot off in my brain. Oh. But I- I'd be curious, like, if you can talk a little bit about... Because you do such a beautiful job of, like, zooming in and then zooming out. Mm-hmm. Like, holding both with a lot of strength and care, and that curiosity mindset of like, but what could be better?
What could we do differently? Mm. So I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about [00:12:00] just the educational system and how, and how it- you've kind of described it in your book with, like, looking at how systems can, you know, we can prepare teachers and educators and also hold systems responsible and, and really cultivate their buy-in, even with these micro-moments.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Yeah. So I think for me, I love analogies. I love anchors. I like kind of something I can loop back to that, like, is catchy and sticks in my brain. Similar, like, I- I think there's so much happening. We're constantly inundated with so much input. It helps to have something that's grounding. So that was part of the framing and structure of the book, was really saying what feels actionable, digestible, and meaningful, and in a way that can sit with the individual, live in classrooms tangibly, and then shape systems.
So I really structured the book around what I call the 10, like, mindsets or paradigm shifts of a trauma-informed system [00:13:00] That I think we can embody as individuals and also attend to structurally within systems to promote making the places where people learn, people come to heal, receive care, support much more trauma informed.
And I will name, yes, the book is geared towards educators and schools and teachers because that audience holds my heart very intimately. And I think there's definitely transcendence beyond K12, and I think, you know, 'cause I think across, you know, across all of that. But so I think pieces that come to mind and what this looks like tangibly, we dig into this idea of clarity.
I think oftentimes we aren't speaking the same language even when we think we are. And so having ways in which you understand what I'm talking about, I understand what you're talking about, and I'm actually just checking in. It's almost like a, like a consent process and understanding like do you...
When I say this, what does that mean to you? And I think one of the things that comes to mind, you know, more the zoom in frame is, you know, in individual classrooms we talk all the time about students need to be [00:14:00] respectful. And like that word just drives me nuts 'cause like what does that mean? Like it doesn't, it's so unclear until we actually zoom in and say, "Well, I receive respect when you, you know, make eye contact when we're talking.
I receive respect when I'm not interrupted and I feel like I'm being heard and you're paying attention and not scrolling on your phone when we're talking." And someone else may feel like, "I actually feel respected when you give me the time and space to like process things the way I need." Like, you know, so getting that clarity matters.
But then also zooming up at that systems level, I think there's so many processes and approaches and expectations that are just assumed and are never actually talked about or named. So I think making sure in systems we make those things clear. That falls into communication, how we talk. There's this quote that, you know, the biggest, I don't remember who said it so I'll have to research that to put it in the show notes.
But this idea of the biggest myth about communication is assuming it's taken place to begin with, and I think- Mm ... that's a key piece in trauma-informed systems as well. Predictability, knowing what's coming. There's that, that is empowering as a means of [00:15:00] safety, a trauma-informed intervention. So how teachers communicate in the classroom is super important.
How we communicate with families is super important. But how administration and the systems actually communicate and give us heads up before policy rollouts happen, or even how we communicate within policy rollout and change matters. So there's a lot of ways in which I really see trauma-informed practice as a paradigm shift in that regard.
And Even beyond, I don't know, I'm losing my, I'm losing my train of thought here. I was like, get a... You know, this is you and I. We'll just yap and yap, and be like, "Wait a minute, what else was I saying?" But I think all of that to say there is this broader, yeah, paradigm shift kind of frame of saying this is not another toolkit, curriculum, extra thing.
I think what I really hold to be very true about trauma-informed practice is it is really, I often use the analogy of like glasses, a new lens that we put on, and being able to see everything else through differently. And I think as teachers, you know, read [00:16:00] the book, they'll be looking and they'll see a lot of strategies in there.
They're like, "I do that, and I never would've labeled that trauma informed before." And I'm like, "That's the point." There's so much that's actually just compassionate and human-centered, and slowing down and just beginning to be curious about what might be happening for this child, and what's the best way I can support them.
That right there is m- in many ways a trauma informed approach. And then when we do that at the systems level of saying, "Whoa, like we need to fix some stuff 'cause we're feeling pressure, we're feeling policy shifts. All these things are happening. How do we then accommodate, adjust, pivot, design with care for the students, teachers, people within the system in mind?"
Because the systems will keep systeming. They're gonna perpetuate and do exactly what they've been doing without active intervention. And so that takes a collective to come together and say, our system isn't getting the results that we say we want it to get, so then we have to start changing the structures and [00:17:00] protocols itself.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yeah. I'm laughing because what you're just sharing, I feel like I, I say the same, literally the same thing all the time. When I was reading your book, I was like, it's so validating because when you're leading trauma informed work, especially in these systems and during this moment on the timeline, it can feel So the, the dissonance is so thick because it's like we see the need for this, you're doing this approach, people question it or are, like, confused.
And then I'm like, "Did, did I make... Am I making sense? Did I make this up?" And then I read the book and I'm like, "Oh, this is so validating." I'm like, I- Mm-hmm ... teach so similarly. Like, it's, it's all very different and, like, unique to each person, but it's, like, the same kind of way. And I think it, your book really does speak to the [00:18:00] educator within a system and a system of educators in, in a way though that also, like you said, transcends and can be applicable for so many other people in whatever system or part of the system you're in, whatever grade.
And I, I love that it is really honing in on this isn't, like, this isn't complicated. It's, like I always say, it's not complicated- Yeah ... but it's a choice and it's how do we shift? I use the same analogy with the glasses, like how do we shift our mindset? How do we- Mm-hmm ... become more mindful? Am I mindful all the time?
Hell no. Like- No ... most times, no. But, you know, the more we practice it and work it, it, it becomes that organic. And I think- Mm-hmm ... you know, in or i- in, like you mention over and over again, this is also not just for the care we give to students, it's for educators too, and how we see. And I wonder if you can talk a little about that, that, like, bidirectionality of how this a- Mm-hmm
also is [00:19:00] meant to really support the ones delivering this work, which we know folks are feeling the burn. It's extra crispy out there. So how can this also support the educator?
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Ugh. Yeah. There's like 5,000 things I feel like I wanna say on this, on this right now. As I think, so I think, like, in the book, and I think just even in life and conversations I have, like, I, my heart intent and hope is that teachers feel super validated when they see this.
Like, 'cause I think I tell stories in the book too that talk about ways that I did not get it right. Like, one of the chapters I talk about relationships, and obviously, like, teachers understand relationships are core, and I feel like we don't often talk about that. Like, how do we... But what does that mean?
Like, I think oftentimes it's just, you know, personality and it's not how do we actually think structurally and strategically about relationships. But I talk about, I had a student who hated me, hated being in my presence, tore me up, ate me up, and I just didn't know how to move forward with that. And we finally had to sit and say, "Okay, there's, there's a [00:20:00] negotiation and agreement we can figure out," and we did eventually figure it out.
But I think, I think all that to say- I hope that teachers feel seen and validated. And in this, there's a range of, of tools that I offer, and a lot of that too comes down to the questions that we ask of ourselves and deeper reflection. And so every chapter contains self-reflection practices, strategies that I can try, that I can journal.
And these come from things that I did in my practice, my peers have done in their practice. I talk to educators too throughout the book and just dig into what's happening for them. And so there's, there's really practical individually reflective tools. But I think more broadly than there's actual teaming pro- And there's stuff they can do with students too, of course.
But there's also just, like, teaming structures and being able to say, "Okay, what, what would it look like for us to interrogate the system around us? And how do we pull in coalitions of folks so it actually isn't just sitting on my shoulders because it can't?" And I [00:21:00] think what's really hard sometimes in this work, and I, I'm guilty of this even now and as a teacher, that I think we, we lose sight sometimes of how, how systems really do embody the tensions and stressors.
Like, I do a, a webinar that talks about, like, organizational nervous system, and it, it... Like, we're acting stress responses in systems too. We see fight, flight, freeze, and fawn in systems too. Oh, yeah. And I think that ability to ask that question of what's happening here for ourselves matters, and saying, "What's happening with me?
What's my story? What's my journey? How am I interpreting what's going on in front of me? What is the story that I'm telling about my classroom, about my school?" Because that's helpful. But then also being able to do that for the broader system and say, "Okay, what's happening in, you know, this school district or this county that can help us then actually get deeper at the root cause and what's really going on underneath?"
Because that's where the remedy and solution really can come to life. Yeah. So I don't even know if that actually answered the question, but [00:22:00] my brain was just like... 'Cause I think about systems change too, it's We- everything feels urgent around us. Like, we are navigating supporting children who are going through really traumatic and really hard things, and systems move so slowly.
Change takes place so slowly, and that can feel really hard. And I think what happens too is we, we don't- we look for someone to blame, because that feels safer and easier. And I, you know, a quick scroll on Instagram will tell you all of apparently the terrible things that teachers are doing in schools to da, da, da, da.
And I think this, this book, I think really disrupts. I mean, teachers know we not the problem. But, like, at times we are the problem. Like, sometimes I get in my own way. And so I think there's this reality of, of sitting and saying, this, I hope, feels validating that I see what's happening, I hear you, and, like, we get to do this together, and so here's some tools, strategies, resources to help you do that.
And more broadly, like, what might the system do that can [00:23:00] actually begin to shift as well? So this is for administrators just as much as it is for teachers, but-
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yeah. I'm curious, like- That was another, I
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): got distracted
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): by my own- No. No, no. I'm, was- Yeah ... following you deeply. I- I'm curious, like, when you offer a lot, like, you offer so much of the balance between, like, you know, evidence-based, but also, like, the reality of things.
Mm-hmm. And it is so many tools and resources for educators. But I also wonder, you know, as I was reading it, I was like, yeah, but if s- the leadership and the systems also did this for teachers, it w- it's the same thing. Yeah. Is that a correct, like, assumption there?
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): No, 100%. And we even at- Okay ... like, work I do with Trauma Transform, we talk about this all the time.
I a mentor of mine, Ken Epstein, uses, like, this house analogy that I think it's really helpful. Like our traum- and I, we abbreviate it a little bit, but we talk about, like, trauma-informed practices, strategies, things we do in the [00:24:00] classroom for our students. It's like, it's like the couch. It's like the furniture, right?
And if we don't have a system or structure, a protector, a house that that furniture lives in, effectively these strategies are just like a soggy couch on the curb, like, waiting to get picked up, you know, by somebody else because we cast it out 'cause it, like, doesn't work. So if I continue to create a space where-- And I think we see this play out in schools a lot.
This was my experience in some schools I was in where, okay, in this classroom, you know, the shut my door and teach kind of energy. Like, in this classroom, these are the rules. This is the expectation. This is the way that we're gonna work together, and I'm gonna embody these trauma-informed practices. And then you walk out in the hall and an adult is yelling at you.
You go down to another classroom and the teacher isn't taking into consideration maybe what ha- is happening for you day in and day out at home. You know, maybe there's- administrators that are putting all this pressure on teachers so their well-intentions and their good intentions aren't able to actually last or stick, and then they get burned out and then [00:25:00] everybody's snappy, everybody's short, everybody's frustrated.
So I think yes, that is, that is a core piece of if we don't have administrative structures and policies in place, things aren't coherent, we're gonna continue running into challenges and problems.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yeah. I love, I love a good visual, and that one is, is so great. Yeah, we can't have soggy couches like- Mm-hmm
for so many reasons. And I f- you know, I can, just being raised by educators, like-
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Mm ...
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): you know, knowing the system from that perspective, like there's so many people who are just bearing the weight of being an, a safety anchor for so many kids. Mm. And I often in my trainings will talk about, when I talk about you know, co-regulation and the power we have as [00:26:00] mirrors for one another, and just how research- Mm
tells us over and over again how the number one way to prevent, mitigate, and heal trauma and s- toxic stress are safe, healthy, nurturing relationships. And, and you know, the great thing, and also kind of this double-edged sword, and, and also I don't want it to bear the weight on all teachers, but usually teachers are the ones that are that person.
Mm-hmm. I can think of countless stories, and I'm sure you can too, of kids who are just really struggling at home, so much out of their control, but you know, they had that one teacher, and that changed the trajectory of their life. Even sibling groups. I've seen two siblings, same house, same abuse, totally different trajectories- Yeah
because there was somebody who just was like, "Hey, do you need a snack?" Or like something super, super simple that built trust with that student that had a lasting impact. And yeah, I, I always think about that, and [00:27:00] I always... But I also feel heavy with that weight because I know educators in these systems, especially on this timeline right now, are not feeling the support they deserve to, to carry that.
Mm. Or they feel like they're carrying it alone.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Hmm. I think this is something I, I address quite a bit too, is one thing that I see keep coming up in conversations is this idea of accountability and what that looks like and what that means. And I think we are rightly in schools moving away from punitive disciplinary practices, a one-size-fits-all consequence for things, whatever.
And I think we are also running into this in some contexts, the pendulum has swung so far the opposite way, where there isn't a like, you actually don't get to keep disrupting learning for people. You don't get to cause harm. You don't get to, you know? And I think teachers are really caught in the middle of this- you know, conversation and I see this as one example of kind of this, this tension of how do we support teachers effectively?
[00:28:00] And I think having collaborative relationships with, like, families, what does that actually look like? I see oftentimes teachers and parents get at odds about things, and I think the log- larger collective, just, like, media energy right now is also really fueling that. But I think for school teams to really look and say, "Okay, what, what is the data telling us is happening in our school?
Are we running into challenges with kids staying in the classroom? Is it work completion? Is it outbursts in class?" Then what actually supports that as in, what might actually be a reasonable intervention? Do we have approaches for redirection? Do we have strategies where you know, students are able to, you know, get called by an administrator, take a break, come back to class under appropriate structures?
Like, how do we ... What works for who we are in our context? Because I also don't think there's such a thing as one universal approach to this. I think we have to attend to who our learners are and what works for the community that we're in. And then can we commit to this together and take on [00:29:00] an iterative approach of saying, "Okay, teachers are saying they need more time.
Teachers are saying they need more administrative support for student behaviors. Teachers are saying..." Okay, then what might that look like? What can we try? How do we get feedback, and how do we keep iterating? Because I think Oftentime- it's hard, like I was always in the place where I was constantly getting feedback and input from my students.
What's working? What did you like about this lesson? What landed? What didn't? Because I see that iteration as trauma informed. You have a bit of agency over your experience. But then if we expect teachers to give students agency and then we don't give teachers agency, we're now then, we're replicating the harm in the system that we're saying we're trying to disrupt by just doing it to teachers now instead of students.
So I think, yeah, all of this has to come down to collaboration. All of this has to come down to meaningful, authentic conversations and communication, and then depersonalizing stuff. If I come to you and I'm like, "Hey, yo, this didn't work. This was harmful. This was frustrating," do I as the administrator maybe say, "Mm, too bad.
That is, feels like an attack on me and my leadership," or do I say, [00:30:00] "Oh, actually this, I hear you, I see you, because I want to build something better with you"? And I think that's where we can start to begin to see some more meaningful change. And getting folks spending time in schools and hanging out, seeing what's going on.
'Cause if we're dist- Yeah ... too distant from it, it's hard to know what's going on.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yeah. I, I see a lot of that swinging to extremes in all areas, right? Especially when people learn about this approach, then they swing to the extreme of like, oh, well, everything has to be this certain way, or I'm too afraid to even touch it, so I don't wanna...
And it's like, I, I'm always telling people, like, just like reg- regulation in a nervous system, like, don't listen to the grifters out there on social media saying the goal of a healthy nervous system is a calm one, 'cause you'll get hit by the bus when you're crossing the street if you're not dysregulated.
We wanna come back to neutrality, and that's, like, kind of back to, like, the ner- our nervous system mirrors the nervous system of an organization, of a district- Mm-hmm ... of a school. And so, like, how are we just coming back to [00:31:00] neutrality and looking at, you know, using our critical thinking skills, which poor critical thinking.
It's, it's a, it's a muscle Right. And, and finding that way to lean on this approach that gives us things that, like, we already know how to do. I say the same thing, like, we're not... Am I giving you a whole new set of things? Like, how can we up-skill or re-skill or, you know, relearn how to communicate? How can we just make- That's the C
these tiny shifts. Yes. No,
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): this is- Tiny shifts ... the C I left off, which is creativity.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Ah, yes.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Do you know? Like, I didn't, that's not in the book, but it could've been. I, listen, I love an, I'm a sucker for alliteration. I love- But that's exactly- I see ... what you're talking about. Yes. And so I touch on this a little bit in my chapter on coherence, but it's, like we can't, and I think sometimes with trauma-informed, it feels more re-traumatizing because I feel helpless.
I d- I can't change things around me, which creates, to your exact point, this nervous system dysregulation of this all feels so traumatizing now because I have no agency. But I think we sometimes [00:32:00] also forget agency isn't just more budget, agency isn't just more time. Like, we have other levers and strategies that we can pull on to get creative to finding opportunity for additional innovation.
Like, okay, we can't, you know, change class sizes. That feels overwhelming, that feels stressful. How do we then maybe adjust instruction to create different pockets in the room for different tasks and at different times? Or, you know, the school system, okay, we need our, our, we can't necessarily hire more staff, so can we get creative about the way we structure our schedule during the day so that folks can...
We, we created a school I worked at, we structured it so all of our students were at an elective at the same time in the middle of the day. So we had a middle block that was just electives, and we balanced out our, our workload so that teachers for a quarter would facilitate an elective class. It could be literally whatever they wanted to facilitate.
I think I did one on, like, fashion design one year and just, like, we looked at things and students sketched. Like, [00:33:00] it was just really fun, really cool stuff. But then what that did is for the teams that weren't actively facilitating, we had three uninterrupted periods in a row for collaboration, for planning- We played with the schedule because we couldn't hire more people.
There were other s- things we were trying to accommodate for with, y- you know, just... So we said, "Okay, what, what c- what is within our control then that we can adjust?" And so I think while that may not seem like a trauma-informed strategy, it was, because what that did is it actually created- Absolutely ... time, space, breathing room for teachers.
I no longer had to cram my lunch in 20 minutes to go hunt down students to, like, get them, you know, support them in other ways. We could meet as a team, and we were in a pod structure, so I could get together with all of the folks who taught the same students I did. We could meaningfully look at data, not in some contrived, artificial way, but it was actionable, it was relevant, it was consistent.
So it doesn't have to always look like, I think, the traditional ways we think about problem-solving either.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Okay. You [00:34:00] just answered the question I was gonna ask, is what could a trauma-informed school look like? And you just answered it, right? It's different for everyone, and I think that's what, you know, why I find your book so validating and affirming, and what, because this is what I tell people over and over again, is like This practice, like I wish we came up with a better term.
We're gonna still call it trauma informed. I'm sorry, like people need to rise to the occasion that this is, this is the reality of the word. But that doesn't have anything to do actually with anyone's tra- trauma. Like no one is, you don't need to know anyone's trauma history for them, for you to deliver this kind of care or for you to receive it.
And it's not asking you to like burn everything down, although I think honestly we should in some cases. But in this case, like look at- Yeah ... what's available and then make those small shifts. And sometimes there's not gonna be a choice, and that's [00:35:00] okay. How can we still look? But if there is not, kinda back to your analogy, if there is not a strong foundation of trust on your teams, in your, the people who are delivering, you know, whatever care service, then you're never going to get to the place of creativity because no, everyone's stressed out.
No one, there's no trust. People are afraid to speak up. We know when, that trust creates conditions for safety, so when we have trust built and continuously nurtured, you're gonna feel more open. You're gonna feel like maybe what if we tried this? Mm ... and that's like what I try to hone in on is like we need tr- like everything rises and falls on trust, and I think there is such a-
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Mm
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): a, you know, a defi- a trust deficit happening in all areas, but especially in education systems. The heightened, you know, activation of the nervous system of education and [00:36:00] just the- Yeah ... people and policies that are impacting it. But I hope people listening really hear and, and get your book again because it's, it provides such clear and practical ways with those examples that you share which, and, and full of resources.
Like so many resources.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Yeah. That was, I think, actually full transparency an interesting struggle in the writing process of this was I, I'm very thankful and very blessed that I, a lot of the work I do is very connected to individual schools, teams, organizations. And so oftentimes when I talk about like the strategies themselves, they're actually really relevant to what's happening in your context, what do you need, how do we take a look at the problem you're, you're facing and then, and then work towards solutions in a way that makes sense for what you have.
Because I, I don't- Generally, generally speaking, I don't think there [00:37:00] is, like, a one universal, "If your school follows this formula, it will be trauma-informed." And I also acknowledge the nua- or the, the, maybe the complexity of that where it's like, "But I j- I'm tired. I just need a formula to follow that gives me XYZ so I know what to do."
And so I think acknowledging that tension is real and, and valid. Mm-hmm. And, you know, just sitting talking, like we could definitely yap about, "Okay, try these strategies. Do these six approaches," and yeah, that'll work. And I've also witnessed how folks who don't have the, the, the breathing techniques. I talk-- There's a, a colleague of mine who teaches in Baltimore, and she talks a lot about, like, she isn't necessarily doing mindfulness activities every day in her classroom, but she has a consistent, reliable presence.
Her tone of voice will shift to help regulate the classroom. And so while it's not this, you know, explicit, "This is a strategy I'm doing," she has made a decision to say, "What type of [00:38:00] presence will settle the nervous system of my students, and what does that look like for me to show up in that way?" Like, it's that type of thing that I think really moves the needle forward.
And then when teachers like her are able to sit and say, "Okay, this is what then my nervous system needs in the environment around me. Like, I would like to not have every single early release professional learning day be sitting in meetings that could be an email. I would really like to have planning time.
I would like to have time protected to do XYZ. I don't need a pizza party. I need, you know, the copier to work." Like, I think sometimes we just, we lose sight of those little micro-interventions. Micro-supports actually create conditions where my nervous system can be settled. Because I'm gonna tell you what, if we gave all of these global problems to teachers...
Can I cuss on this podcast?
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Oh, yeah.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Oh, yeah. Shit would be fixed in 20 minutes. Do you know what I mean? Like, if we literally had a bunch of educators in a room to sit and say, "How do we, how do we..." Like, teachers are some of the most brilliant, capable, powerful human beings on the [00:39:00] planet who are constantly bound and limited in ways that they don't need to be.
Yes. And so I think creating the space to say, "Administrators, district leaders, what does that look like?" to the word that you so wisely always weave into everything, how do we show that we trust our teachers? If I trust you, legitimately, what does that look like? And I think I talk about this a little bit in Coherence, a little bit in, like, all over through the book, but, like, does what I say I believe match what I do?
Two
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): instances of trust, yeah? Exactly. Like, are you reliable? Are you gonna say what you're gonna do? Do what you're gonna say? Yeah. It's, again-
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Mm, and I think oftentimes le- when we get in positions of leadership, I think there is an ego that comes with it. It's I have to prove, I have to justify. And I think especially in education, like, there isn't, like, the structure for, like, advancement.
Like, honestly, I feel like sometimes we almost punish teachers who are really good at these things because then we pull them away from young people that they love serving, and then they get stuck in the bureaucracy. And, like, [00:40:00] you know, it, it's hard. And I think as administrators we have to be thoughtful, too, about letting go of the ego that comes with those positions, and not be afraid to get some feedback, not be afraid to get some input.
And say, "I did this thing. How did this work for you?" Because that consent, that check-in process, like, that, that is a means of agency, that voice and choice that we wanna do in instruction for students. We have to do that for educators as well.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yeah. You know, that story, and I think of your colleague in Baltimore, is where I get, like, so fired up.
Because I zoom out and I see she and so many people are that anchor of trust and safety for students, and we have no idea. Like, yeah, we see the stories sometimes, and then we show them at the galas and the things and, you know, help, help that around, you know, resilience, whatever. But there are probably countless students who could have [00:41:00] gone two ways in life, and because she showed up as a mirror and a safe, healthy, nurturing relationship-
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Mm-hmm
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): she quite literally could, probably has saved lives. And, like, if we know that's, like, I just always am like, if you know that's the reality, why, what are we d- even doing? I just, I'll, I will save my rant. But two things we probably don't have time, so maybe we bookmark for a part two. But, like, I would love to dig into the power dynamics and the h- the antiquated hierarchical structure of education systems because I too feel like I've seen in my role in schools, and then just seeing people, it within the systems like- working tirelessly to try to make shift.
Mm-hmm. They have great ideas, and it's just hammered down. Like, my foray into a K through 12 system many years ago running a big federal grant, like [00:42:00] one of nine schools in the nation, it was a dream job, on violence prevention. We had all this buy-in, and I did all this work, and at the end, the leadership was like, "Mm, we just wanted the accolade.
We don't wanna do it." And I was like... And that-
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Oh,
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): boy ... that was, like, such a-
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Devastating ...
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): it was devastating. And I'm grateful that I, the grant ended and I got hired on by the city I was working in to continue a lot of the c- coalition building and capacity building we were doing. But, like, that just made me wake up to, oh, so we don't really care about the safety of kids, 'cause this was literally a violence prevention grant.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Ugh.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Like, oh, so we don't actually- There's a lot I could say about
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): that-
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yeah ... in our, our country right now,
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): yeah
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Like, and we don't... Right. And so, so maybe we'll do a panel podcast or, I don't know, like, that could get dicey for us. Let's get a crew. We got
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): friends. We'll get a crew.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): But I feel like we need to talk about power [00:43:00] dynamics in schools.
But the other thing that kinda came up again now or later are, I think I may have forgotten it, but, like, you were just talking about how- This, it, it, it's so layered, but it's so also so accessible. And I think your book is, it's an a- accessible tool. And I think one of the key components of education systems that I have talked, and, and again, just referring to Amy who was on the last episode, of we are gonna need to start talking about trauma-informed parenting soon.
I am not currently a parent but they're a huge part of the system, and I think that's something we just... I'm just gonna put that out there.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Yeah. Calling, calling all parents who are-
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Calling all parents ... trauma
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): informed. Oh my God. Well, that's, yeah, that's an interesting conversation. I mean, about- Or
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): caregiving, I should say.
Not necessarily parenting, but
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): caregivers. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the, the tension between, like, you know, [00:44:00] all the, all the hype around gentle parenting, which you could also talk about as, like, gentle teaching and, like, what does that mean? Mm-hmm. What does that look like? And trauma informed doesn't mean accountability goes out the window, so how do we, how do we sit between this balance?
And yeah, that could be interesting. Yeah. I too am not a parent, nor will I be, but I think I do think that is a really important conversation, especially at the intersection of schools because oftentimes I think schools get caught up in the, the narrative that trauma only happens at home.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): And we begin to start telling stories about parents in a way that removes them as collaborators from the conversation.
And I think we can feel however type of way about a child's parent, and again, this is also, like, except- you know, exempting conversations of explicit harm, abu- you know, of course. Yeah. But I think we get the story of, like, "Oh, I don't agree with a decision," or, "I don't like... I, I just assume that what I'm seeing is the behavior of this child is because of you."
And I think, yes, we can have a conversation about [00:45:00] accountability and parenting, certainly, and that's why the ACE, original ACE study expanded to community level trauma as well and the systems around our kids, the neighborhoods- Yeah ... and poverty and-
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): And the, and the redlining which you talked about in your book, which I was just like, "Yes, okay."
Yeah. Yeah, I so agree.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): We, we tell the truth.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): We tell the truth in the book. Yeah, we tell the truth. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's so important to look at- Again, back to power dynamics of like it's not this infighting between parents and schools and all these things. Like it's- Right ... a lot of times, you know, a school can also be a safe haven for parents too, es- especially depending on the context of the situation.
So,
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): you know- Yes, because parents are products, parents are products of the same systems that are replicating harm and trauma in our students.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): 100%, yeah. So again, probably not for today, but I'm just kind of like- Yes ... things that are floating around in my- As we both are like, ah. ... floating around. So I really want folks to hear a little more about like y- we've talked about your [00:46:00] book.
Tell us the details. How can people get it? How can we help
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): you out? Yeah. So the book is called The Trauma-Informed Educator. It's available anywhere books are sold. So it's shipping, pre-order is active now, but the official pub date got moved up to November 10th. So if you're, depending on when you're listening to this, you may already be able to have a copy at your doorstep.
It's really, it's really my love letter to teachers and my philosophy of education in a book. It covers 10, 10 paradigm shifts, mindsets that we can embody, again, both at the individual level and then also at the systems level for schools. And it has in- it's a lot of invitational practices. I promise you'll read some of it and you'll be like, "Oh my gosh, this is so validating.
I do this already." And you'll read some of this and you'll be like, "Oh my gosh, Bre, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. This is never gonna work in my classroom." And like, that's okay. Like these are invitations and offerings for practice, self-reflection tools for teachers, strategies and ideas of things they can do alongside students in the classroom, and then systems level questions, conversations, [00:47:00] structures that can help build the collective culture so it isn't just sitting on teachers' shoulders.
So every chapter has that. You get access to a digital folder of like printable stuff. Like the publisher like really hooked us up here, so we're ... Thank you, Free Spirit. They're really, really giving us the tools there. But she's, she's a longer book. She's almost 300 pages, but that was abridged version.
Your girl, once she gets going, she, she yaps and types. But yeah, it covers the 10, the 10C framework, so dig into that. And
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): We love a framework. That's it, yeah. Loved the book. I've read it. I'm always pinch myself when people like are so generous and like, "Want to read my book early?" And I'm like, "What? Yes."
Thank you. And so it was such a, a ... Yeah, I could go on and on. But it's, it's such a great book. It's so accessible. I always, always love having another thing to give people. Mm-hmm. In, when I'm in different, you know, speaking in different things, like [00:48:00] I work across industries but I always tell people like K through 12, like I've worked in it, I will, but it's not necessarily my- focus, so I love having people in the ecosystem that I can tap into.
But I also think, like, remembering, too 'cause we've had lots of authors on this podcast, like pre-orders matter. Pre-order people's books. It's a really big deal. Always emphasize that no-
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Yes, please ...
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): no matter when you're listening, but always pre-order people's books. It makes or breaks... Not breaks, but it makes a huge difference in accessibility, in going into libraries to get it into different areas.
So- Yeah ...
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): it's great. And I'm learning about this, too. Yeah. And if you're not a teacher, my, my ask for folks who are not teachers is to buy a couple copies and donate them to your local school.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yes. Oh, yes. That's a good idea.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Yeah. We just- 'Cause also teachers, teachers are broke. We don't get paid enough, so
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Teachers are broke
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): we can give, bring some treats, bring some [00:49:00] donuts and a couple copies of the book, and you know, take care of your people.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): That is... I love that idea. That's a great idea. Yeah. So awesome. And before we get into our gentle spritz, how can people find you? Anything else going on that we, you wanna let people know?
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Yeah. Please plug in LinkedIn, Brianna Young Educator I think is my handle on Insta or the end of In- LinkedIn. On Instagram, I'm at Brianna Young Teaches. Come join the conversation. I try to post some education things, some not j- non-education things, and then whatever Instagram trend I think is funny in the moment.
Will try to hop on- Keeping it human ...
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): I don't know. Love it.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): You know, we gotta, we gotta keep the human in it, too, as well as, you know, trying to-
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Absolutely ...
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): get into education. And then I work for an incredible nonprofit called Trauma Transformed. We're based in Oakland. I think my boss is gonna be coming on the podcast of- Let's hope
hopefully in the coming, coming season as well. Really trying to get
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): her on here.
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): But we are, we are offering regular [00:50:00] free webinars all about trauma-informed workplace culture, all about trauma-informed practices that are really transcendent any industry, whether you are leader of teams or whether you're someone who is frontline staff working directly with clients.
So those are always available, traumatransformed.org, so feel free to check that out as well.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Yeah. All of that will be in the show notes, too, so you can access it. Thank you so much for this conversation. I know, like, I, I always think I'm gonna have, like, these questions, and then it's like, nope, my brain is like, "No, I wanna dive deeper."
So hopefully you followed. But- Oh, did we dive ... let's dive into our, our gentle spritz. Again, if you have more than one word, totally fine, but if you can describe trauma-informed care in a word, what would it be?
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Curiosity.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): What is your current go-to nervous system care practice or tool?
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Going to raves and dancing like a wild person.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Love that. All right. [00:51:00] And what does a trauma-informed future look like for you?
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): Nurturing and protecting our young people so that they can grow up in environments that help them thrive.
Katie Kurtz (she/her/they/them): Mm, love that. Thank you so, so much. Anything else before we close today?
Dr. Brianna Young (she/her): No, I'm ... Thank you for the chance to talk. It's been really, it's been really lovely.
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