The 4 C’s of Ethical Copy with Natalie Topalian

Written By Katie Kurtz
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Our words matter. It is usually through our words, copy, and content that people are first introduced to who we are, what we do, and what we stand for. In today’s episode, host Katie Kurtz speaks with guest Natalie Topalian about the power of copy and content writing and how to apply trauma-informed care practices to your business. Natalie shares with us her 4 C’s of ethical copy and several practical tips on how to shift your copy to one that is more ethical and trauma-informed. When we speak and write with a trauma-informed lens, others are more likely to build trust, access a felt sense of safety, and feel seen and heard.

Meet Natalie Topalian:

Natalie Topalian is an ethical copywriter & content writer with nearly a decade of experience. Originally from Metro Detroit, Natalie moved to West Michigan to attend Grand Valley State University, where she graduated with a BA in Advertising & Public Relations, with an emphasis in Advertising. While attending GVSU, Natalie immersed herself in the local advertising and marketing community, following the direction of her favorite professor and mentor, Frank Blossom.

She attended The Polishing Center portfolio school in Summer 2014, where she became connected with The Image Shoppe (TIS), a brand marketing firm local to Grand Rapids, MI — who eventually hired Natalie as their first full-time copywriter. During her time at TIS, Natalie supported dozens of clients in a variety of industries, including hospitality, commercial real estate, local government, banking, HR, commercial development, cannabis, and more. Her 6 years at TIS deepened her passion for on-point brand messaging, and the distillation of a brand's unique message in all of their copy and content.

In addition to her work at The Image Shoppe, Natalie became an adjunct professor at her alma mater, GVSU, teaching the Advertising Copywriting class for juniors and seniors. Natalie also spent her time outside of work supporting entrepreneurs and small-business owners with their copywriting and content needs on a freelance basis. She eventually grew her business to full-time status and went all-in on entrepreneurship in October 2020. Since then, she has supported 100 entrepreneurs & small-business owners around the world in developing their brand messaging, website copywriting, launch copywriting, content creation, launch planning, and even ethical copywriting education.

Outside of work, Natalie is an avid CrossFitter, powerlifter, olympic weightlifter, and euchre player. She is absolutely obsessed with her dog Beau (a Great Pyrenees/Boxer mix), and married her husband Rob in May 2021 at the bar they met in Grand Rapids, MI. Today, Natalie, Rob, and Beau continue to live in Grand Rapids — where Rob is operating partner of The Nightwatch Lounge, a high-end cocktail bar in Downtown Grand Rapids.

Connect with Natalie:

Show Transcript:

Our words matter. The language we use matters, whether it's verbally or non-verbally written or expressed. How we create copy and content is often the first way people are introduced to who we are and what we do. We have both a choice and an opportunity to ensure that the copy and content we're creating is inviting people to learn about who we are, what we value, what we represent, and how they're gonna feel in the spaces and services we're providing to them.

We have such a unique opportunity to ensure that the copy and content we're creating is led through a trauma-informed lens. I'm so excited to share today's podcast conversation with my colleague and good friend Natalie Alion. Natalie is an ethical copywriter and content writer with nearly a decade of experience in advertising and public relations.

Natalie began her copywriting career with Image Shop where she supported dozens of clients in a variety of industries, including hospitality, commercial real estate, local government, banking, hr, commercial development, cannabis, and more. Her six years in an agency deepened her passion for an on-point branding, messaging, and then the distillation of a brand's unique message and all their copy and content.

Okay. Natalie began working with and supporting entrepreneurs and small business owners with copywriting and content needs on a freelance basis, and then she eventually grew her business to a full-time status and went all in in October of 2020. Since then, she has supported hundreds of entrepreneurs and small business owners around the world and developing their brand messaging, website copywriting, launch copywriting, content creation, launch planning, and even ethical copywriting education.

I am so eager to share this conversation with you today, Natalie and I go right in to talk about all things content creation and copywriting. And Natalie shares so many practical and doable tips on how to shift how you write so that you can promote trauma-informed principles in a way that is clear and compelling.

If you are somebody who creates copy and content for a living, perhaps you have your own business or it's integrated into the work you do, or you're a consumer of other people's copy and content. You do not wanna miss out on today's episode. I can't wait to share this conversation with you. Let's get started.

Hi everyone, and welcome to a Trauma-Informed Future podcast. I am your host, Katie Kurtz. I'm so excited to have our guest Natalie Ian today. Uh, Natalie is one of my favorite people, so I'm really selfish and, and eager to have her on to have this conversation about being trauma-informed, uh, and applying trauma-informed care to her work and business as a copywriter.

So, welcome, Natalie. So happy you're here.

Natalie Topalian: Thank you so much. And the feeling is mutual. Definitely one of my favorite people. Um, and also someone who really, um, you know, changed the course of my business and my outlook on life. So I owe you a lot and I'm really honored to be here.

Katie Kurtz: Yeah, same. Same. So, Natalie, I, you know, obviously gave your very formal introduction, but I would love for you to introduce yourself and share how you're arriving here today.

Natalie Topalian: Yeah, so, um, as Katie said, my name's Natalie. Um, I also go by Nat and, um, for a while on Instagram I was known anonymously as the brand copywriter. Um, now I just go, my business name is just my name, Natalie Alion. Um, I attended Grand Valley State University where I graduated with a degree in advertising.

And from there when I was studying that, I knew, um, from taking, you know, several of the courses within the, um, to receive my degree. I fell in love with the copywriting course. Um, and I had always been a lifelong lover of writing, creative writing, all that stuff. So it seems, you know, just like a natural fit and progression, um, through my career and.

Um, I started off in the traditional agency world right when I graduated. Um, I started at a local brand marketing firm where I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Um, and I was their first ever full-time copywriter. We were really small staff. Um, there are eight of us on the team, um, the one and only copywriter.

So I did all things, words related and they were such phenomenal people to work with and, um, to get my start in, in my career. Um, and it was really, There, it was kind of interesting. There's like twofold of, um, or like I, I guess two sides of the coin one, um, they, the company I worked for were very progressive forward thinking.

Um, they were a certified B corporation, which for those of you who may not know, um, certified B corporations are focused on a triple bottom line business philosophy. So rather than just focusing on profits and money, um, a lot of their initiatives were also very, um, people focused. So, um, the people who work within the organization and the community, As well as, um, plan it forward, so being kind to the environment, um, and all these things.

So the more like sustainable, um, holistic approach to business I became familiar with from, um, my first employer. Um, so that was, you know, really, uh, my first introduction to like, not all businesses have to be corporate and greedy and things like that. But on the other side, you know, it still was a marketing firm and in a lot of marketing spaces there are.

A lot of, um, you know, more unethical or what we would identify as not very trauma-informed practices that go into campaigns and writing and, um, you know, strategies within marketing. So none of that ever sit right with me, but I didn't quite have the language or even just as much experience under my belt to know what was off about it per se, until I decided to take, um, my freelance work full-time and go, um, totally on my own with contract work.

And, um, once I created my business Instagram, that's how Katie and I got connected. Um, and she was really the first person I saw talking about trauma-informed care and what that meant. And it just completely, the messaging and like the purpose and principles behind it totally resonated with me. It finally gave me the language and context that I was.

Wanting and needing to fully understand exactly like my own philosophy and values with how I wanted to exist in the world of business and just in the world in general as a human. Um, and since then when I took Katie's cultivate course, you know, I just continued to build upon that. And now I'm super, you know, proud for the last few years being able to, um, continue building and, um, you know, fostering a business that has been, in my mind, very successful.

Um, all based on, you know, trauma-informed care. So that's super cool.

Katie Kurtz: Love it. Yeah. Natalie, I love that you, and it's been so incredible to witness you apply trauma-informed care practices to your business where you focus on copywriting in a variety of ways and. Maybe you can start just to help give us some shared language. Because we know that's what I'm all about. When we say copywriting, what exactly does that mean? What are some of the services or things you provide to clients?

Natalie Topalian: Yeah, that's a great question. Especially because, um, a lot of folks confuse copywriting, W R I T I N G with copywriting, R I G H T I N G. Um, and that's honestly something that's still a great example of how, um, you know, clear communication and um, word choice and, um, trauma-informed.

Um, care is just so, it's an ongoing practice because it's still something I'm trying to nail down, um, that is easily digestible and understandable for everyone. So, um, I currently, the way I like to best describe it is I write, um, the words that people use to communicate what they do. So I, um, within my own, like specialties with copywriting, I primarily focus on brand messaging, which is sort of your overarching, um, you know, main points that you wanna communicate with the world about what you do and who you are and what you value, what you represent, um, and then that messaging gets distilled into all of the, um, the words and the content that you create to, um, reach your target audience and to grow your business.

Um, for my own business personally, um, I focus on website copywriting, so all the words that go on websites. I don't build web websites. Um, but all of the words that you're, that you will read as a visitor on a website, I write those. Um, same thing with sales pages. So if anyone has a specific product that, um, an entire page of their website is dedicated to, or a service or a course or something, um, I specialize in that.

Sales copywriting as well as email marketing. Um, and then also social media content as well. So, um, those are my primary areas. Um, but copywriting can span a bunch of different, um, mediums. So, you know, we're all familiar with, um, or met, you know, most of us are familiar with billboards. Um, so any words on billboards, a copywriter will create those.

Um, there's also, you know, copywriters who do TV scripts or radio scripts and commercials and, um, even the words that appear on packaging of foods you buy at the grocery store, things like that. So, um, there's a writer behind all of those words. Um, wherever you encounter them in the world. Thank you for

Katie Kurtz: sharing that because I think the big thing, and one of the reasons why I knew I wanted to be in conversation with you around when we think about creating a trauma-informed future, words matter, and language is our vehicle and our bridge to creating connection and creating meaning making.

So we think about all the words we encounter all the time, especially whether it's, you know, in real life where we're driving or we're going into a store or whatever. Or online, we are constantly interacting with copywriting and with some sort of messaging, whether that is for buying something or engaging with something or being informed about something.

So I'm curious, because I see such a connection between the work you're doing and applying trauma-informed care, but I'm curious, you talked a little bit about your own personal values and how, you know, I don't believe we can really separate our personal and professional lives. Right? It's all, we're all one, one being as much as we try, uh, yeah.

It all, it's all connected. Right. So when you think about, you talked about your values, your personal, your business values and how you were feeling a misalignment between where you were working in kind of corporate, you know, the, that world, business world versus creating your own space. You know, what drew you to trauma-informed care?

Like why did this approach draw you in and. To the point where you got training and, and apply

Natalie Topalian: it? Yeah, that's a great question. So, um, uh, I think it, a lot of it really goes back to, um, my childhood and how it was, how I was raised actually. So my younger sister is autistic, primarily nonverbal. And, um, for anyone who, um, may or may not know, um, or have experience with, um, an autistic, like the autistic community, um, they are very, um, uh, they, they really like to have structure and predictability and, um, for, you know, um, to have like a schedule and calendar to live by.

Um, so in my family and my childhood growing up when someone said they were going to do something and when my sister heard what the, what the plan was or what they were going to be doing, um, it was very important that we followed through with it and stuck with it. Um, So for me growing up, I really, um, you know, just developed the, the value and saw the importance around sticking to your word and being very clear in communicating if something did have to change, um, and changing expectations around that.

And a lot of that, um, clear communication, process oriented type, um, piece is missing from a lot of marketing communication and copy and a lot of that like, um, painting a picture of a clear, um, process and, you know, clearly communicating for whoever your audience is. Um, taking into consideration what someone's, um, Background lived experience might be, um, to, you know, create as much predictability and understanding and safety around, um, what you're, what language you're using and, um, you know, the processes you're creating, um, is really important.

And I think a lot of people, um, you know, just, uh, maybe don't realize the significance of that or, um, maybe don't have the, the language to really, like I did not having the language around initially before coming across trauma-informed care, what exactly I was looking for to like fill that gap. Um, I think the same thing applies to.

Um, you know, people not realizing like how important that clear communication component is. Um, and that's what I really saw missing a lot within marketing copy, especially, you know, for any, um, business or campaign that's centered around, um, you know, trying to gain conversions or, you know, make sales, which, you know, a lot of business is about, you know, making sales and making money, but there's a lot more there, there are many more components to it as well.

Um, so to sort of skate around those things and to try to get in as many conversions or sales as possible, um, oftentimes we see a lot of, um, you know, copy messaging missing or omitting the really important details about the process of something, um, or about, um, you know, any like. Stipulations or disclaimers, things like that.

Like even beyond, um, you know, legal things, but, um, you know, really important pieces of a process like pricing or timelines. Um, so having all that stuff clear and upfront for people to digest, um, will allow them to better make more informed decisions that are supportive for them and their needs or their wants, um, you know, versus getting bamboozled as I like to say, um, by a company or a person or, you know, whatever it might be.

Does that answer the question? Yeah.

Katie Kurtz: I think what's so key about what you shared is, is this and both. So you have your own personal lived experience of, you know, growing up with a sibling with autism and how that impacted the culture of your family. And also installed values of how, and I'm sure impacted how you communicate in various ways.

But then also seeing, you know, I'm sure trauma informed care was never mentioned in your, you know, undergrad program or in marketing ever, right? Like even for B Corp, like it trauma, like trauma's still connotated as a bad word, right? It's negative. It's like, don't say that. So of course you didn't learn about this approach in marketing or, or sales or any business related course grad program, whatever.

And I think what this goes to show, and I appreciate you sharing so much about your own experience, is that you knew what you wanted, right? You, you had, you were seeking to show up a certain way. You were noticing sometimes the very covert or insidious nature of marketing that can be forceful or authoritarian or even, you know, really that cringe feeling we've all felt before.

Yes. We know when it's really overt. Like we can feel the cringe when we get sold to, or we see something or read something that is just overtly not good marketing or that marketing that's really trying to, you know, get to, you know, the pain points, quote unquote. Yeah. Versus those really insidious ways we're constantly being bombarded or like the word you used, bamboozled into some sort of conversion.

Conversion, whether that is to sell. To get money or even just to change your mind or into opinion, like it's so many different ways. And I think what's key here is that you, you, you were able to identify like, I know what I want. There's something missing. You just didn't have the language or knew about this approach until you know you learned about it.

And I think this is a great example of how trauma-informed care has existed. So siloed in the health and human service world and hasn't, is just now starting to enter these new industries. And we need to make this approach inclusive and welcoming to folks in marketing and copywriting because it impacts us on an everyday occasion.

Like every day we're impacted by the words people use. And so, You have done and what I witness in the work you've, you've done both as, um, you know, a, a friend as somebody who admires your work, and also as somebody who has, has consumed your work as a client, how you have been able to take what you do best and then lay over a trauma-informed approach to make it even better, to make it even more engaging.

So, I, uh, love this conversation and, and I'm excited to share your work with people to see what a great example of what. Trauma-informed copywriting and marketing looks like in everyday life. 'cause I think those examples are so important for us to see. 'cause it's one thing to know something, but then to see it integrated it, it makes it so much richer.

So I, I'm curious if you could share a little bit about how once you started to learn about trauma-informed care, how you began to like apply it. Like what is, what did it start to look like and now, or maybe what does it look like now as you start to integrate it into your business?

Natalie Topalian: Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for just the kind words.

Um, I really, you know, I just really appreciate it. Um, so for my, uh, how I've implemented trauma-informed principles into my work, that's definitely evolved over time. I think, um, you know, when I first took Cultivate and started to immerse myself more in what it means to be a trauma-informed, um, provider, um, and service provider.

I kind of took it a little bit. I went like a little bit overly cautious with how, with the language I was using and the, and the, the principles I was, you know, um, following and, and implementing into my business. Like, um, because I was. Fearful that I would maybe be, um, or, or I was just overly um, hyper aware of all of the possible outcomes of what I could say or how something could be interpreted.

Um, and I wanted to just be, you know, very, um, mindful of all of that. Um, so for a while, um, you know, when in my approach to my own personal writing, of course, when I'm working with other clients, I, um, you know, take on their own brand voice and tone and we work together to establish what that even is, if they're unsure of it when they come to me.

Um, but for my own marketing purposes, I feel like I, I, uh, started using a little bit like language. I was a little bit. Softer than what I normally use. And for a while I was equating trauma-informed, had to be soft. And that's not necessarily the case. Um, I think that you can still be, you know, genuine and authentic to who you are.

And I'm a fiery Leo. Um, I'm a Leo baby. Th through and through. Um, so, you know, keeping still some of that like, um, high energy and um, You know, more of that like energetic liveliness within my, my copy and my messaging while still being, um, you know, trauma informed with, um, how I'm delivering information.

Um, keeping in mind, you know, people's, um, Uh, privilege, lived experience, all those things, um, when I am working with others and, um, you know, approaching the, the topics that I wanna talk about in my own content. But, um, when it comes to working with clients, something that I started to do after taking, um, cultivate was, um, providing just some extra context around, um, sort of like the onboarding process.

I think that that upfront, um, you know, work that you can do within the, the client onboarding process, if you are a service provider or a coach of some kind, um, that's really where you can set up a relationship for, um, you know, more success and open, um, dialogue and, um, for more. Of a, um, brave space to show up.

Um, you know, whether it be like, like in the work that I do, people's, um, you know, business is super personal to them. If they're an entrepreneur, um, or a small business owner and, um, you know, the, the language and words that they use to talk about their business, it, it matters, you know, very importantly to them.

Um, and they want it to be, you know, accurate, um, while also still, um, you know, being able to, um, uh, you know, bring them success and growth and whatnot. Um, so anyway, all that to say in the, in the onboarding process with my clients, um, I really like to one, set expectations. Um, Upfront about, um, you know, outside of what we might be contractually, um, you know, obligated to fulfill, um, on both sides of the relationship.

Um, something that you introduced me to Katie that I love is a group agreement, and that is at the top of all of my contracts, not as a, um, legally binding thing, but just as sort of an outline of, um, you know, what my expectations are for a working relationship in terms of like, communication, um, you know, how, um, how much time to let sit before communicating or like responding to an email.

Um, you know, the, the fact that timelines are affected by how. Um, you know, adherent people are to, um, responding in a certain, um, time window, things like that. And just letting people know upfront, um, what my core values are in my relationships with clients. Um, so that, you know, it's just another touch point of before you even sign the contract, even if you were on board working with me and, you know, beforehand, if now you're seeing this and you're uncomfortable with the way that I like to work, which of course I, you know, tell them that upfront and whatever, you know, way we're communicating before a contract is even sent to them.

Um, but it's just another checkpoint of is this the right fit for me? If not, I don't have to sign this contract. Um, But still letting people know that off, like upfront. Um, and then along with the contract as well. And with that whole onboarding process, um, it could be a lot to digest in reading, um, you know, like for a whole onboarding email plus sifting through a contract.

So I like to record Loom video walkthroughs. Um, for anyone Unfamiliar Loom is a tool, um, that they do have a free version, um, where you can, um, film your screen and there's a little camera in the corner that shows your face as well. So you can add some personalization to it. Um, but you can walk people through documents really easily that way or whatever your screen is sharing.

Um, so I like to do that with all of the onboarding materials. Like any questionnaires they might be getting. Um, you know, the, the primary points of the contract that people tend to look out for, like what the payment schedule is, what the cancellation policy is, um, you know, refunds, things like that. Um, so I like to do that right upfront.

Again, just to offer different ways for people to digest all that really important content, um, for, you know, establishing the relationship. Because some people are more, um, visual learners, some are more, um, you know, audio learners. So just, um, keeping that in mind, um, you know, for different accessibility.

And then within, um, their actual project, when I'm creating any messaging or website copy for them, when I'm delivering their deliverables, I always include a limb video walkthrough for that as well. Um, just to again, give more, um, ways to, um, for them to digest and, um, you know, hear from my point of view beyond just the words on the page.

Um, the, the reasons why I, you know, made certain decisions with their messaging and copy. Um, I think that's also, um, you know, a really important thing, even if they don't end up, um, you know, watching the video, it's something that like, uh, initially right away, it's something that they can go back to. Um, especially because anything words related, I highly encourage people to sit with it and digest before diving into reviewing anything or making any edits, um, just to, you know, really let it soak in.

Um, so those are a few key things that I've heard a lot of great feedback from people about, you know, breaking down the process and the expectations, um, right up front and making it very clear and concise. Um, unlike the way I just described all this to you, I'm not, I'm, uh, brevity is hard for me. No,

Katie Kurtz: it's so good because.

First of all, I learned about Loom from You and that was such Oh great. Such a great tool. Uh, we are not sellers of Loom, we're just fans. Yes. But Loom is such a great, not to be confused with Zoom, which it's very similar actually, but it's Loom when you introduced me to Loom. And then I also, I think, 'cause we work together on brand messaging guides and also I've used some of your pocket copywriter templates.

It's so helpful because I am somebody that is constantly, I have like a million tabs open in my brain and if I'm feeling more stressed out or something's happening, it's really hard to like read through a whole guide or. I, I just wanna get to whatever I need quickly. And the Loom video is great. Uh, I'm also somebody that listens to like podcasts and things at like one and a half speed.

Yes. Uh, and people are like, what are you doing? I, I can't not now listen to things fast. I don't know. It's just how my brain has adapted in Covid. But Loom also gives you like captions and transcripts and that speed thing. So it's really helpful to have that just additional option. And I think what's so great about everything you've shared here is that this isn't, all the things you're doing are not necessarily like trauma informed.

Practices like we would think, right? They're not something where you are, you know, you're looking at the trauma of every client you have and every brand you're working with. You'll notice everything you've said here has nothing to do with anyone's personal stories or lived experiences, unless that's part of, you know, the copy you are helping them with, right?

You don't need to know anything about your client's experiences to offer them these really great options, and that's what makes it trauma informed right Now, you know why you're doing it. And that's the whole point. Like a lot of people who are listening to this might be like, wow, I do all of this. Great.

When you're, it may, it becomes trauma-informed because it's likely affirming what you're doing, but now you know why you're doing it. To promote things like consent. Because when we can choose what's best for us in the moment, we're more likely then to be able to access trust and safety, which are the whole, you know, The whole thing of trauma-informed care.

But I think why I love this example and why I'm so excited to talk to you is that. When you go to your Instagram or your website, it's fun, it's colorful, there's disco balls, like you have an energy that is light and fun and very fiery. And Leo, I love that.

Pressing pause for a moment to share some helpful information and invite you to my free workshop this month. Promoting Safety in Your Workspaces. We hear it all the time. This is a safe space, but who is it actually safe for and who determines what safety feels like? If you are anything like me, you have a strong desire for people you work with to feel comfortable, trusting, and safe in your programs and in your presence.

We can have all the good intentions in the world, but safety doesn't come from good intentions. Safety is essential to building, trusting long lasting and successful relationships. It's not only important to know why safety is key, but to have tangible tools to make it a priority. Join me for this free virtual workshop where we'll explore why safety is essential in client relationships.

What risks you take by assuming safety with others. The benefits your clients gain by feeling safety in your presence and how trauma-informed care advances safety for everyone. This free workshop will be held on Wednesday, August 9th at 12:00 PM Eastern Standard time, with a recording of the replay available for limited time after you can register for this free workshop by going to katie kurtz.com/free workshop.

Okay, now back to this episode.

And so a lot of times I think people have this misconception, like trauma-informed care needs to be like light and like you said, soft and like therapeutic or we just like lose ourselves to give everything away. And that's not the case. Like it can be fun and energetic. A lot of people may never know that you have this training and utilize these skills to your services.

Uh, because we still have these weird like myths around what this is. But I think like for anyone listening, go check out Nats work because it's such a great example of somebody who's leading this work out loud through a trauma-informed lens. And it doesn't have to be any certain way. It's just you using your voice, using your brand, branding, your values, but you're still applying all of

Natalie Topalian: these skills.

Yeah, totally. One of the, or I guess two of the biggest takeaways that I took from Cultivate and just from, you know, um, learning from you, you know, outside of that as well, is that, um, one, it's, it's not as, and we've, you know, basically already talked about the here, but it's not as complicated as people think it has to be.

Like a lot of people, like you said, probably are doing a lot of these things, but now, you know, the trauma-informed education just gives you the context for why it's important and then can even give you more, um, you know, ideas or, uh, or ways to incorporate it into your own business and life. Um, you know, just with more intentionality or even like looking at the already trauma-informed practices you have, and then building them out more to be, even more, um, you know, trauma-informed for, you know, for more, for a larger group of people or whatever it might be.

Um, And the second one I had, I just, I just forgot, uh, uh, it, it left my brain. But something else I did wanna bring up was, um, about, well, I guess this can apply as well as a takeaway about how it's, you know, just always going to be evolving because trauma-informed care should also be supportive for you.

Um, the facilitator or like the provider or whatever, you know, role you might hold. Um, it should be supportive of like you and your needs and values as well as for your clients. It's not completely negotiating your own values and needs for whatever is best for your clients. Um, and part of that in, um, the beginning stages of my business, before I started using Loom and things like that, coming from an agency background, I was very used to.

Presenting my work or deliverables live with clients, either in person or virtually. Um, so I would do that, you know, initially with my first set, um, sets of clients when I was going on my own full time. And I found that one, not only did it create sort of an unspoken sense of like, pressure for the client to almost like, feel like maybe they have to perform or react a certain way to whatever it was I was presenting, if it was like a new tagline for them or other pieces of their messaging or the first round of website copy.

Um, not only did it feel, you know, Like, um, higher pressure for them, but for me it also felt higher pressure. Um, and just very uncomfortable because I'm not the, I, I just don't thrive off of live presenting to people. I feel much more confident doing so, um, you know, without the other person in front of me because I can collect my thoughts a little bit better.

I can more, I can prepare a little bit, um, you know, better for like a Loom video versus, um, uh, presenting in front of someone or like a deliverable in front of them, um, because, you know, their facial expressions or body language or whatever might totally impact like my, my confidence or how I show up. So even, um, you know, just learning those things along the way, um, and finding these other tools that support that practice.

Not that. Before when I was live presenting deliverables, I was, I, for one, I would never ask someone to say whether they liked something or not, or to approve something on a call. That's something that drives me nuts. Um, you, you know, should not be asking for approvals for someone on a call. Let them, you know, digest creative work before that.

Um, so I wasn't doing that, but still just kind of being live and present with someone presenting deliverables, you know, it's just kind of uncomfortable for both parties. So, um, you know, learning, um, more about the important, the importance of choice and consent and things like that within trauma-informed care just really gave me permission to be like, okay, even if this, um, you know, way of delivering is sort of, you know, a commonality within my industry, I don't have to do it that way.

Um, I can do it in a way that better supports like me and how I work, while also still, um, you know, creating a great results and experience for my clients too. Yes. So

Katie Kurtz: much as to all of that. I think, you know, something you said earlier was how, when you initially learned all of these, you know what trauma-informed care is, all the elements and practices, you know, you, you may have swung to one extreme, which is so common, and I wanna normalize and humanize that.

It's because it feels like we start to peel back layers for many people. It also, because we can't compartmentalize our humanity, we may even start to see our own lived experiences differently. And so then we, and we see other things more clearly, right? It's almost like putting on, uh, I think of like, like glasses or sunglasses, like those nice polarized sunglasses.

You see things in like technicolor. And so then you start to notice like, wow, well I was sold to that way, and like that's not. That's not trauma informed or like that person, I worked with that person and that didn't feel that way. And so it can be really human of us to swing, to think, oh, and get hyper aware or vigilant of like, everything we're saying or doing has to be a certain way.

And I really appreciate you sharing that because, and then show how it's evolved because what we both know is it, it, it doesn't fit into that binary kind of way of thinking Like we often think it, it, it's meant to be applied and adapted to your own lens of leadership, your own branding, your own voice, and you integrate it in, in whatever way feels most supportive for you on your own timeline.

And I think that's why your, you and the work you do is such a great example of this, of this kind of integration because it doesn't have to be, you show how you've applied it into your own way without it being. The forefront or, you know, hyper-focused. It's just, it's very natural. So I'm curious because you, you touched on this just now about how it's also, it involves us, right?

I, I teach trauma-informed care in this bi-directional approach. I'm curious, as you've started to, and continue to apply the trauma-informed care practices into your business, have you noticed any, any impact or benefits from maybe you've heard from your clients or just yourself as, as the person delivering this work?

Natalie Topalian: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, for one people. Like, almost everyone I work with just off the bat says how much they appreciate, um, how much I explain just right at the very beginning exactly what the process will be. Um, in terms of like the actual timeline of like, okay, first this happens, you're gonna wait x amount of time before you get this deliverable, and then once that happens, then this is the next stage.

It just really, you know, gets people, um, in the right mindset for what to expect. And there's no guesswork. I love taking the guesswork out of, you know, any, any process because oftentimes with so many things we encounter, I mean, there's nothing more like, at least for me, like anxiety inducing then being in a, in a new place and I'm like, okay, I need to look for this sign.

I don't know where it is. Where do I turn, where do I go? You know, from here like just being, you know, prepared, especially for people who have maybe never worked with a copywriter before or, um, really even hired any sort of service provider for their business. It can feel, um, Just intimidating doing something new for the first time.

So, you know, breaking down that barrier to entry by laying, you know, laying the groundwork right away. I think, um, you know, people really do appreciate that. Um, and then with, um, the, I, like I said earlier, I get a lot of, um, positive feedback about the Loom videos as well, just because it really does, like, even outside of providing extra comments, like in a Google Doc or something about like, this is why I chose this word.

Just hearing someone, um, be able to explain it with their voice, you know, it just adds, you know, that that extra layer of human connection and um, you know, building that rapport and relationship with the service provider you're working with, um, I think that that really helps to, um, you know, build a trusting, strong relationship in that way.

Um, And then also something that, I don't know if this could directly applies, but um, for, you know, I get a lot of questions about like, um, and this is addressed in my contract as well, but about like intellectual property, like since I'm the person writing the words for them, like, do they have to give me credit?

Or like, can they use, you know, these words however they want. Like, a lot of people are super amazed, like, oh my gosh, this is written now. I can literally just use this wherever. Like, you know, I can literally copy and paste this like into my Instagram bio. Like I can just put this right into my website and like, that's it, it's done.

And that, that is how it works for me anyway. So, um, you know, people just, uh, you know, really appreciate how like the, um, because really the work that I do with the. Questionnaires and conversations that I have with my clients, they're the ones telling me everything, um, about their business and their approach and like their why behind what they do.

Um, it's just, you know, I'm the one who's piecing it together in a way that tells a story and that communicates, you know, like exactly how they want to communicate it, um, to their audience. So really like, I mean, the intellectual property is theirs. I'm just the one distilling it into a more digestible format for them.

Um, so I think that that's really cool as well. It's just like a super collaborative relationship, like truly through and through. Um, I always, you know, communicate with them again, like in, um, my website copy, like from, you know, whenever they first find my, find who I am, um, and inquire with me like all throughout the process.

I constantly, you know, and reminding them that they are the experts in their business and what they want to communicate and they know. The ins and outs of everything within their own business, better than I ever will. Um, so I really lean on them for their subject matter expertise and, you know, the directions and values that guide them through their, um, business and client relationships.

And then I'm just sort of the one like facilitating and putting it all together. Um, so the, the collaboration and communication, and you'll find both of those on my, um, website is two of my three core values. Um, that's just really like the heart of everything and a lot of people truly do communicate, like, you know, at the end of our time together, just how much they appreciated like, feeling, um, like their, uh, their wishes and, and desires and what they want to say was truly taken into consideration and taken to heart.

Which to me, I'm like, well, Dell, that's a no brainer. Like, this is your business and your words. I'm just, you know, sort of bringing it to life for you. Um, so that's just really rewarding every time I hear that. Yeah, and what a

Katie Kurtz: great example by. So having those clear expectations, that consistent communications, the transparency that comes with your work, and then the deliverables being so co-creative and collaborate, collaborative.

I mean, that's the essence of trauma-informed care. I want us all to pause and really think about brands that we purchase from or interact with consistently. And why we do that. Why do we choose these brands? I'm gonna venture to guess it's because we know they're predictable. We're gonna receive really predictable outcomes and consistent outcomes that we can be repeated over time.

And what we both know is our nervous system. I say this a lot, our nervous system loves predictability, consistency, and repetition. So what you are doing by setting up systems, um, like standards of process, all of these kind of service behind the scenes business models, you are creating predictability and consistency, which in essence is building trust and brand loyalty.

And I bet you have customers, I'm one of them coming back again and again because you know, they know what to expect from you. And that's, that's, that's. Not just impacting your relationships with clients or consumers, but also that is promoting ethical and integrity based business that is also impacting you as you grow.

So I think this is such a beautiful example of the, IM all the boundless possibilities that can come from applying trauma-informed care into your business that we wouldn't traditionally think of copywriting or marketing.

Natalie Topalian: Totally. Yeah. And um, to your point about, um, you know, just creating that predictability and having it be, you know, something that, that keeps, um, you know, customers coming back or clients, you know, signing on for, for a longer engagement or whatever it might be.

There's, um, There are, like you said, like, you know, we've worked together in several ways and, um, there are, um, a couple people that I work with on a retainer basis who, you know, over time in, in particular one of my clients, um, we first worked together, it's been two years now on her brand messaging. We started there and then, um, you know, from there we collaborated on some, um, sales page copywriting for her website for a couple of her programs.

And then, um, now for the last six or seven months, I've been supporting her on a monthly basis with, um, social content creation. And we actually just met yesterday for a monthly meeting and. We, uh, you know, she was telling me about how like just things are really, you know, coming together and, um, you know, just how beautifully it's all been built over time and you don't even really notice it in the moment or like, as, you know, the days, weeks, months go by.

But now, you know, two years later from our first engagement together, um, just seeing how, you know, us being able to continue our relationship together in different ways, um, you know, we've been able to evolve her message over time as she, you know, naturally evolves as a business owner and as a human and with her capacity and offerings and whatnot.

Um, and for her audience to really, um, you know, be able to, um, grow alongside her and, um, to be really receptive of, um, the evolution of things and, you know, like the, the topics she speaks on and her messaging. It's just so cool to see. And it really, I. It really does go to show how, um, impactful the, um, you know, having, um, really safe, trusting, predictable relationships and stuff.

Um, how all of that is just really everything. I mean, there's a reason why we have sort of our core group of friends or family or loved ones or whatever, that we, you know, kind of lean on as resources. Like there's a reason why we have those people. Like community is just so important. And trauma-informed care really cultivates a community that, um, you know, just offers those many layers of support in, in so many different ways.

I don't know, I'm, I'm going on a emotional tangent now, but it's just super cool here for

Katie Kurtz: it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's, there's so many possibilities and it also gives us an opportunity to reimagine what business can be, can look like, and. Going back to our initial part of this conversation was being coming from corporate or agency life, seeing how.

There were potential red flags or misalignment. We can reimagine and do business differently with this lens. It's possible we do it, we see it every day. And I think it also increases the benefits, not just of what we're delivering to our clients or communities, but also for ourselves so that it can feel more aligned for us and benefit us and, and not just in, you know, revenue and that kind of the financial stab, stability or sustainability, but also, Just our own capacity to keep showing up to do this work, to prevent burnout, to stay creative, all of these different things.

Nat, as we start to sort of close this conversation, I feel like we could go on forever and Yes, and hopefully, you know, this is just the beginning of many conversations. I know there's a lot of people listening to this podcast who either are also in marketing business, copywriting, or on the flip side benefiting from either they're doing it themselves or they're looking to work with people in this work.

Because words matter, right? And the words we use matter. And when we think about using our words, sharing our story, especially for those of us who has, who are entrepreneurs, this work is very vulnerable. There's a lot of risks involved and a lot of times we're, you know what, it's art. And when we're sharing our stories to convey messaging, it's very vulnerable work.

And so, Utilizing a trauma-informed lens, I think is imperative in in this kind of work, in any type of business services. But I would love for to hear from you, you know, why, why would somebody adopt a trauma-informed lens as a copywriter or in marketing, and what are some things to look for, or perhaps examples of what this could look like.

Natalie Topalian: Yeah. So to answer the first question, I think that taking a more trauma-informed lens to marketing and copywriting in particular, one, um, it's inherently in my mind, more human and personable. And I see, you know, I think we've all sort of noticed a big shift in, you know, people wanting to see more humanity and relatability and the content they're consuming and the people that they're doing business with.

And people really do care about if companies and brands are walking the walk and talking the talk, it's not enough to just say or list what your core values are and your website, like how are you actually upholding those things? And the trauma-informed care approach really sort of keeps that, that layer of accountability there that I think is really important to, you know, show how you're like demonstrating those things.

So, you know, as a business or a copywriter, if you say that you are collaborative or you value a collaborative process, um, you know, going into the details of, you know, just, you know, explaining like what about your process is collaborative, um, you know, the benefits of a collaborative process for your clients with whatever the work is that you're doing.

Um, just, you know, saying, saying the, the expanding on the why behind it or the how to actually give people some context and be able to apply it to things that, that they understand or can relate to within, you know, whatever industry as you work in is super, you know, important just to, again, give people that sense of like predictability for like their nervous system and like knowing what to expect.

And then Katie, I'm sorry, can you remind me of the second question? Yeah. So I

Katie Kurtz: yes

Natalie Topalian: for.

Katie Kurtz: Because words marketing messaging. What? What storytelling. Oh yeah. It's all sort of a, I'm not minimizing each of those very separate things, but they're all very interconnected. So for anyone listening to this, what would you suggest considering?

'cause we're always, we're always thinking in considerations and invitations. If they're looking to integrate trauma-informed care into their, their copy. What, what are some things you often think of? 'cause I know you have some great frameworks you utilize in your ethical marketing and, and branding.

What, what would you leave

Natalie Topalian: people with? Totally. So a couple things. One, the thing that I tell, or, you know, give advice to anyone is if you wouldn't say it to someone's face, then you shouldn't be writing it. So if you would feel uncomfortable saying something, um, you know, if you were having a conversation over coffee with someone, if you wouldn't tell them whatever it is you're about to write, then that's likely something that is not trauma informed.

Like an example of this within like the diet culture space or nutrition space or whatever. You know, a lot of times, like a lot of messaging we'll see is like guilt-free snacks or like things about feeling ashamed of your body or whatever. A lot of times copy, like on sales pages, we'll start off by saying like, do you feel ashamed in your clothes or you wanna like hide certain parts of your body or whatever.

I'm willing to bet that most people wouldn't. Be comfortable saying that to someone's face. So it's not something that we should be writing. 'cause people are reading it and there is a human on the other side of the screen. So that's kind of the first thing. It's really like a gut check, but not only for whoever is writing, but if you're reading something and it makes you feel a little like shameful or guilty or like you need to take action right now, like if you're feeling a little like fantic or something, then that's probably another gut check of like this.

Is, you know, a little bit pushy or not something that's aligned with me to sign up for someone to work with or whatever. And then another checkpoint is I like to incorporate what I like to call the four C's of ethical copy into my writing. So that's choice, which a lot of what we, you know, discussed already, you know, giving people the, you know, all the information necessary to make a choice that's aligned with them.

You know, by doing things like communicating what your core values are, being very straightforward about what the process is to work with you, the expectations you have within the relationship, having, you know, the price or payment schedule or whatever it might be, readily available. Even if you have the type of service or business that's, you know, custom pricing based on like a custom quote or something like that, you can always incorporate language like projects.

Starting at X amount or, um, you know, the median cost or average cost if something is usually around this mark, if, if you offer payment plans, you know, making that readily available for people as well. And f a Q section is great for all that stuff. So there's choice, and then clarity is the next one, which really kind of goes hand in hand with that.

So it, it's, it is definitely a delicate balance of wanting to give all the information that people need to make an informed decision and doing so in a way that's clear and not overwhelming, because we can definitely get bombarded with information overload. So, you know, ensuring that you are, um, using, you know, language that is free of jargon or like industry terminology that people might not understand.

Breaking down a process to be like, you know, as to explain your process in a most, the most simplified way as possible. My kind of motto about the work that I do is doing simple really well. So explaining, you know, even if, if what you do is a little bit more complex, breaking it down to, you know, have it be more digestible for, you know, folks of all understanding.

And then, so that's choice, clarity. The third C is consent. So again, that that goes hand in hand with choice and clarity. They all really work together, but giving people multiple opportunities to decide for themselves if where they are at, whether it be on a website or if they're reading an Instagram post or something, I.

Is where they want to be and if they want to continue on. So giving people sort of multiple checkpoints within your copy of, for example, within a services page or like a sales page or something like that. Reiterating information like what is included in your package, what is not included. Um, that's a little bit more of a informed way to, to sort of say like, this is for you if this is not for you, if type thing, you know, more.

So framing it from the details, like features and benefits of a program or your service versus, you know, making it about the person. And then the last C is compassion. So we've got choice, clarity, consent, and compassion. And that is, you know, just being mindful that we are all humans. We, we'll never know exactly what's going on in someone's life.

So, Being mindful of not using Katie, correct me if this is the, the wrong term, but like person-centered adjectives or behavior centered adjectives. So being mindful of language shifts like that, which Katie has so many phenomenal resources on those sorts of things. And yeah, being mindful of people's really like trauma, uh, privileged trauma and lived experience.

So those are like sort of my four guide points whenever I'm creating copy for myself or other people. And always going back to that golden rule, which applies to all four of those Cs. If you wanna say it to someone's face, don't say it.

Katie Kurtz: Yes. Oh, I love that so much. And I love how you had these existing.

Values, methods, and then they only strengthened or formalized or became evolved and, and stronger with applying the trauma-informed kind of lens to it. I love it. I think there's so much possibility when it comes to applying trauma-informed care to copywriting, and I have a feeling this is the first of many conversations that we'll have together.

So thank you so much for being in conversation with me today. There's so much nuance and so many things we can talk about. That's why I love the conversation, uh, and why this podcast exists. So we can talk it out and we can see what it, what this examples are like in real life. So thank you so much. I would love to shift us into, as we close this space together, what I am fi figuring out what I'm gonna call this, but mm-hmm.

So often podcasts have these like rapid fire, and I feel like for a trauma-informed podcast, rapid fire is sort of like not gonna work. So I'm, I don't know if this is like a slow drip or a gentle spritz, a slow clap, if you will. I don't know. We'll, we'll figure something out. Maybe I'll, I'll lean on you for some, for some language for this, but just some three questions to, to, to close our space today and also to help us come together to envision a trauma-informed future.

So, if you're ready, the first question is, if you could describe trauma-informed care just in one word, what would it

Natalie Topalian: be? Hmm. I would say, Ooh, the first thing that comes to mind is light. I think that trauma-informed care, the, it's kind of twofold. One, I think that it brings just a light into the world, a light of possibilities and just the, like some, the light to me represents like hope and, and forward moving and progress.

And I see trauma-informed care as a light that so many of us didn't realize we were like missing or needing. I definitely felt that way. So that's, yeah, that's what comes to mind. I love

Katie Kurtz: that. Yeah. So the next question is, what are your current or favorite go-to nervous system care practices. So the things you're using just to help tend and nourish your own nervous system these days.

Natalie Topalian: Yes. So all year round, I live in Michigan, so the weather is very volatile, but all year round I make it a priority to get outside in the morning with my dog. Um, taking him for a morning walk listening to whatever podcast episode come out for me that day. That is always the best way for me to start the morning.

Um, you know, rain or shine, snow or, or dry ground, whatever it is, it's been a game changer for me. I didn't realize, you know, before I integrated a morning, walk into my routine, I would just jump right into work. I'd basically wake up, brush my teeth, and then open up my laptop and, you know, I just did not give my nervous system a chance to settle into the new day or like even take.

A, a breath of fresh air or anything. So that's been huge with, you know, just getting me centered and clear and ready for, for the day. Now that it's nicer outside at the end of the day, I love to, again, get outdoors, but I love to just sit in my zero gravity or anti-gravity chair, whatever it's called on our deck.

Um, and just feel the nice breeze on my face and just sit in a quiet moment. I am someone who loves silence. I could go without hearing, you know, someone talk or like music playing or whatever for hours. And I just really enjoy silence and just having, um, a quiet moment outside with just some nature sounds is incredibly awesome.

I just love it. Yes, yes to

Katie Kurtz: nature's nature and pets. Two of our greatest co-regulation. Love

Natalie Topalian: it. Oh yeah. Even better if when I'm having my quiet moment outside on the deck, if um, my dog bow is laying next to me. That's nice. Which he usually is, so that's the best.

Katie Kurtz: Love it. Awesome. Nat, our last question is, what does a trauma-informed future look like for you?

Natalie Topalian: For me, it looks like people, like just everyone being more mindful, aware and, you know, open to giving people more grace. Understanding that we are all in different places. We'll never, like I said earlier, we'll never know what everyone is, you know, has going on in their lives. There's only so much that we see online or like even, you know, for in-person friends and colleagues every day.

So, you know, just really keeping that more like empathetic understanding lens. Especially like in, in this post pandemic world or you know, whatever you wanna call it. It's, you know, 2020 rocked our world. And I think it really showed us more than anything, like, just how we need that compassion. We need each other.

We need that human connection and trauma-informed care and like ways that we, you know, exist in the world will allow us all to do that easier and better, I think. Yes.

Katie Kurtz: Awesome. Nat, how can folks connect with you, your work? Uh, I definitely wanna just plug your pocket Copywriter templates. I have, I have many of them.

I use them. It's such a supportive resource and you make it so supportive and doable to, to integrate. So tell, tell us how people can

Natalie Topalian: connect with you. Yes. First of all, I'm so glad that you love the templates. So I am on Instagram at Nat Alion, and then my website is natalie alion.com, and I'm sure all that will be in the show notes, so, you know, with spelling and things like that.

But on my website you'll find information about my services, which are website copywriting like I mentioned earlier, and launch copywriting. So that all includes, you know, brand messaging and then either words for your website or words for your sales page. And then I also have, um, a template shop called the Pocket Copywriter, and there are about 10 to 12 templates in there.

Primarily all email marketing focused for different, you know, email campaigns or different marketing efforts you might be integrating into your business. There are sales sequences for if you have a group program, um, for if you have a lead magnet or free resource and email sequence that goes along with that welcome campaigns.

Um, there's even some. Like sales page copy outlines in there, a little launch workbook. So there's different kinds of, um, plug and play resources that all include Loom video walkthroughs for each and every template inside. So like we discussed earlier, you can get a taste of what Loom is like you purchase any of those.

And yeah, outside of that, that, those are my main, my main things right now. And yeah, more templates to come. I try to release one every other month, um, and I'm always taking suggestions for those. Awesome.

Katie Kurtz: Yeah. Yeah. And I really encourage people to go, go follow Nat on Instagram, check out her website. These are such great examples just of how you can run a business, you can sell, you can market, we can do all the things and still do it in an ethical, a mindful, compassionate, and trauma-informed way.

So thank you so much for being here, Nat. I'm so grateful for this conversation and for so much that you shared today.

Natalie Topalian: Me too. I am so glad we got to chat about this. And like you said, I'm sure many more conversations to come. That's one of my favorite parts of trauma-informed conversations, ethical business.

It's, you know, so nuanced, so much we can discuss. You really never run out of things to talk about, so, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

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